Body Drop

[oldskool]

I waded thru the search and came up with rumblngs, but no solid discussion...

So the car in question: a 63 roadster-gone-choptop= chopster
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop48.jpg

After removing the body from the pan to get a few more body mods taken car of, I think the car really needs to be VERY low to get that 'death rod' look. Ya know-- the wheels as tall as possible on the car...

The original plan was to build the beam low and raise the tranny a lot...

Pimp Syncro suggested a body drop while I'm cutting everything up... and it got me to thinking.

Since the front body-to pan 'triangle' has been removed (see pic), can I just shorten the top part of that panel to the height I want and trim the outside of the pan off?
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop33.jpg

I think I'd like the door sills to be flush to the floor, but I think the center section should dictate the final height.

Any suggestions/ ideas? I'm still brainstorming this one.

[vwfanatic]

check some of how nich dropped his pan halves on the runtrod. i'm gonna be doing a body drop as well and am leaning toward dropping the pan halves to save some headroom as well. even with the seats nearly on the floor, I question if you could fit in the car without dropping the pan halves.....just a thought, but i'll be watching this thread closely myself, because i'm gonna be wanting to learn on this topic myself. Also Rob or will should pipe in as the Butcherrod had a body drop and i've been asking for details about it, but havent gotten any answers yet

[oldskool]

I have a plastic bucket seat that is roughly the same dimensions as the Walt/Volksrods bomber seats I'll be making-- and if I put it in the car, I need to space it up to about the top of the heater channel to see out the windows... so, I can theoretically raise it up that much and mount the seat to the floor.

After I trim the outer edge of the pan off, and get the body balanced where I want it by repositioning the front and rear 'over the tunnel' sections, it should just be a case of welding panels from the pan to the rockers.

I'm tring my hardest to think what else might be affected...

Between the way the top was chopped (slid down) the raising of the tranny, and the dropping of the body... I'm pretty sure there's no way in hell Type 1 engine tins will fit. I'll probably go with T3 tins or a T4 motor.

[Nick]

check my site out first:
www.RuntRod.com

I have plenty f picts n my body drop (under channeled section). As Dan mentioned, I dropped the florpan halves by welding an 'S' bent sheet metal between the chassis tunel and the floor pas. THis will give you a higer tunel (be aware shifter and handbrakes in case you're doing something to them, FI).

A body drop will affect the front footwell/firewall and rear luggage area. THe engine will sit higher then before (be aware engine tin clearance. But also the fot pedals wil be sitting higher ten the floor now. If you se my site I cut the pedal area, took a sandrail pedal mounting plate and welded it elow the chassis tunnel stck location. You'd have to modify the inside of the tunel to bend the clutch/gas cable tubes downward unless you run hydraulics or something else.

Also be aware of the trunk area, like the gas tank (bottom end needs to be modify to fit in stock location), axles and steering boxes, etc. Also your steerin colun would need to be looked at. Fenders needs to be looked at if you're running them to.

FYI, I relocated my body about 10" back, sounlessyou'l be doin that too I wouldn't follow my picts from y site exactly on your prject. I did mine ths wayfor few reasons, I wanted a low ride with no sacrifice to the headroom (needed a much as I can sinceI sectioned the body too) and I wanted to unbolt the body from the chassis like a factory Beetle.

I'dpost soe picts with this responce but am at work now so have to hury. ANy questions just ask me. It' not an easy job, the chassis mods took me a better part of a year (but alot more mods then just a body drop).

[hotrodheb]

On the truck the floorpans have been welded to the top of the heater channels. If you do it this way, you do not need to mess with the pedals. The only problem is that you can't take the body off of the pan. It is now a unibody!!! You could probably do something similar to Nick's setup, but only drop the outside edge of the pan. That way you can still bolt the body to the pan.

[oldskool]

I've been to your site quite a bit. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

I don't really want to drop the pans, just the body over the pan edge-- like you'd body drop a truck-- the frame stays put.

My pedals will stay where they are, the steering column will have a different angle, but that's probably here nor there due to the steering situation on a stretched front end anyhow.
The gas tank (I'm using a stock one so I have a gas gauge) may have to be spaced upward-- I didn't think of that.
Right now, there's no luggage section/ rear firewall at all, It's removed untill I decide how high the tranny will be. The front firewall has also been removed for the body narrow...
I think I'll have to remove the rear body mount and mount that higher, too.

The seatling position will be go-kart like, but there have been plenty of kit cars with the seats mounted on/ close to the floor, so it hopefully won't be that bad.

[oldskool]

Originally posted by hotrodheb@Nov 8 2004, 10:49 AM
On the truck the floorpans have been welded to the top of the heater channels. If you do it this way, you do not need to mess with the pedals. The only problem is that you can't take the body off of the pan. It is now a unibody!!!
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Can I get a pic of that? It'll probably be the way I'm going...

[hotrodheb]

I'll try and remember to take some pics tonight when I get home.

[vwfanatic]

geeeze rob, i asked and never got pix or info, and all of a sudden you spout forth with the goods. whats' the deal style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif

[oldskool]

Originally posted by vwfanatic@Nov 8 2004, 11:14 AM
geeeze rob, i asked and never got pix or info, and all of a sudden you spout forth with the goods.  whats' the deal style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I'm more cute. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif

[hotrodheb]

Originally posted by vwfanatic@Nov 8 2004, 12:14 PM
geeeze rob, i asked and never got pix or info, and all of a sudden you spout forth with the goods. whats' the deal style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Gotta keep it West Coast Dan! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fingerclear.gif

Actually, I forgot that you wanted pics! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif




I think I will write a note to myself on a yellow stickie and stick it to my forehead. The rest of the people at work will laugh style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif and ridicule style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif me until I run home crying style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/crybaby.gif , but at least I will get the pictures for you Dan! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[vwfanatic]

Originally posted by oldskool+Nov 8 2004, 02:16 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(oldskool @ Nov 8 2004, 02:16 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-vwfanatic@Nov 8 2004, 11:14 AM
geeeze rob, i asked and never got pix or info, and all of a sudden you spout forth with the goods.  whats' the deal style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I'm more cute. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]


rob's got a new girlfriend style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif rob's got a new girlfriend style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[hotrodheb]

Originally posted by vwfanatic+Nov 8 2004, 12:19 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vwfanatic @ Nov 8 2004, 12:19 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by oldskool@Nov 8 2004, 02:16 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-vwfanatic@Nov 8 2004, 11:14 AM
geeeze rob, i asked and never got pix or info, and all of a sudden you spout forth with the goods.  whats' the deal style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I'm more cute. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



rob's got a new girlfriend style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif rob's got a new girlfriend style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]


That's okay Dan, you can still be my <span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">BITCH!</span>

[oldskool]

http://home.indy.rr.com/bwgoodwi/Thanks%20for%20Gaying%20Up%20My%20Day.jpg

lol!

Another thread hijacked!

[vwfanatic]

hey rob...did they beat you up yet? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused.gif

[Nick]

Ah ok, so you wanta channeled body not a body drop. I have some picts of Tobias pickup, I'll have to post those picts when I get off work though. Most channelled VWs ave their pans welded to the heaterchannel or remove the heaterchannel outright and use square tubing instead.

[oldskool]

Originally posted by Nick@Nov 8 2004, 12:15 PM
Ah ok, so you wanta channeled body not a body drop. I have some picts of Tobias pickup, I'll have to post those picts when I get off work though. Most channelled VWs ave their pans welded to the heaterchannel or remove the heaterchannel outright and use square tubing instead.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Ahhhhh, I see. I always kinda lumped channeling and sectioning together as the same thing.

What I'm looking to do is channeling, removing sheetmetal from the middle would be sectioning, and a body drop would be moving the body and floor down while the suspension remains the same. Right? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif

[hotrodheb]

Originally posted by oldskool+Nov 8 2004, 01:37 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(oldskool @ Nov 8 2004, 01:37 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Nick@Nov 8 2004, 12:15 PM
Ah ok, so you wanta channeled body not a body drop. I have some picts of Tobias pickup, I'll have to post those picts when I get off work though. Most channelled VWs ave their pans welded to the heaterchannel or remove the heaterchannel outright and use square tubing instead.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Ahhhhh, I see. I always kinda lumped channeling and sectioning together as the same thing.

What I'm looking to do is channeling, removing sheetmetal from the middle would be sectioning, and a body drop would be moving the body and floor down while the suspension remains the same. Right? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]

Sectioning would be removing metal from the sides of the car.

As far as I know, Channeling and body drops are the same thing just different lingo for different generations.

Channeling is old hot rodder/custom lingo

Body drop is Mini-Trucker / Bling Bling crowd lingo.

[Nick]

Yup,

sectioned = body chop (chop top for the body)
channelled = mount the body below the chassis (floorpan stays stock)
body drop = drop the entire body

Confusing terms, heck I was sectioning my body and calling it channelling when I first started style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif I know, I'm using the term channelled on my site when it's actually body dropped (too lazy to change it... and channelled sounds cooler then body drop even though it's alot harder)

I'm home now so picture time!

This is Tobias car, channelled body welding the pans directly to the body I think (removed the heater channels too I think). Body relocated back 10" or so like my project (FYI)
http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/bug-rod5a.jpg
http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/bug-rod5i.jpg
http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/bug-rod5j.jpg

Tobais other project (relocated body again)
http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/bug-rod6c.jpg
you can kind of see where the body is below the floor pans on this pict
http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/bug-rod6d.jpg
http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/bug-rod6e.jpg
no front firewall on this car neither
http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/bug-rod6l.jpg


And if you want a front firewall/rear luggage, my picts of my car:
I cut (sectioned) the top part of the front footwell, the bottom part has dual layers (FYI) so the top part is easier to modify:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Sectioning/9c.jpg

For the rear, I pretty much cut the entire rear luggage area and rewelded it higher in it's new location. If you do this you may want to consider welding temp braces to keep the body from flexing (don't want to weld it wrong causing the door from open/closing correctly).

[BOOOGHAR]

got any more on tobias OTHER project ..... I think I finall found the look im gunna go after style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif

[Nick]

go to my server: http://69.143.146.45/vw/rods/

Scroll down to bug-rod5xx.jpg (for the split) and bug-rod6xx.jpg (for the pickup) where "xx' means a variable


Or here (old album I put up bt never finished):
http://public.fotki.com/runtrod/custom_vw/page6.html

hit next page for other picts. I have more picts since that's not on that site but on my server

[oldskool59]

I think that if the look you are going for is to have the tires look really tall you gotta section it too. It scales the slab sidedness of the chopped body back into scale with the tires and roof. Not only that but almost no one has done it except for nick. Mess around with it in photoshop.....

[hotrodheb]

OK Dan you can stop whining now...

Here are a couple of pics...
Top:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/causeydesigns/VolksTruck/Channel002.jpg
Bottom:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/causeydesigns/VolksTruck/Channel004.jpg


The rest are on my photobucket page here... Volkstruck photobucket page (http://photobucket.com/albums/v218/causeydesigns/VolksTruck/)

[Griznant]

What an appropriate topic, I was doing a channeling job just this weekend on the '56 (pics to follow).

After cutting up the body to do the narrowing (Letherman chop), and to replace the heater channels I figured channeling it down over the frame wouldn't be too much more work. The pans were already out to be replaced, so I didn't have much to do.

I removed the rear luggage shelf and the front firewall from the body so those can be shortened up and still stay in the same basic places as stock, just up further in the body when it drops. I created an "S" bent section of thin gauge metal to drop the floor pans around the inside perimeter of the pan. This required me to cut out 3/4" from the inside edge of the pan (to account for the pan being moved out due to the S shape, and then i cut out another 1" to narrow the pans further to make up for the narrowed body (for the chop). So, the pans were reduced in total width by 1.75" per side. Once that was done, I had to find a way to drop the heater channels lower on the body so they still bolt up to the pans (I want the body to still be removable). I removed a section from the front "A" shaped bulkhead below the firewall of about 3-4" a side. Then, created a boxed section that drops down, and moves out to lower the heater channels (and pan). In the rear, I cut out about 3.5" from the rear heater channel interface-to-pan and created an "L" bracket to drop it down. The net result is 3.5" of full pan drop with heater channels attached which will take the body with it.

[attachmentid=2629]

This sucker is LOW to the ground now. I'll probably have to adjust the ride height once all the weight is in, but the bare chassis looks friggin' bad-ass the way it is. I love it!

Once the body starts to get fabbed back to the modified chassis I plan on shortening the car by a few inches behind the door pillars to keep the roofline intact. Also, I plan on boxing in the open space between the two pan drops so it is smooth across the bottom. The front is already boxed in across the car (if you look under you see a flat plate dropping down below the firewall area).

As Nick mentioned, the pedals are a sticking point with this operation since they are now higher than the floor. I'll figure something out for that. Needless to say, it looks cool, and LOW!

I'll post pics on my project page in a day.

Grant

[vwfanatic]

grant....that sounds very much like what i am planning, letherman chop, removing pan material from the inside at the tunnel.....sounds the same.....as for the pedals, i havent tried yet, but i am thinking of just creating an elevated box area or raised area for your feet that will allow them to sit at stock height and use the pedals where they are.....not sure if the footroom will be there , but that can be worked out if needed.

[Nick]

Man, alot more people doing alot more radical modifications nowadays. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Dancing.gif Competition style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif


Sounds kind of similar to mine too:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Floor/6c.jpg

Once you're getting into alot of chassis mods, doing an extra step won't be as difficult (same reason why I dropped my body as well).

Might as well put this here for future purposes. Here's how I did with my pedals, I cut the bottom of the tunnel, bent it down then boxed it up:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Floor/5b.jpg

So it's lowered the same amount as my pans/body. Used one of those sandrail plates (thought up cutting and relocating the stock mounts but they're only $10) and welded that to the pans.
http://www.dansperformanceparts.com/buggy/tcbh/00-3159-711.gif
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Floor/12b.jpg

How the bottom looks finished. I'll probably run some thick gauge plate under this section once done just in case.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Floor/14.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------

Another easier to lower the car and not lose any headroom is to channel the body as usual and make a dropped box section around the seat area. So you'll only be dropping the seat rail section, not the entire pans.

[Griznant]

Dan, I was thinking along the same lines. I tried to come up with a way to modify the pedals, but coulldn't get around the lack of mechanical advantage one would have when trying to operate them (fun for the clutch, I'm sure), so I thought of leaving them in place, and creating a platform for my feet. My concern was then about comfort of sitting like that. Not that the car is going to be a long-distance tourer, but too much time behind the wheel may lead to leg cramps or something weird.

I'll update when I figure something out. Gotta do it on the cheap!

[oldskool]

WURD!
thanks for the pics.
That heater vent looks funny abandoned down there.

Sounds like everyone is underway with their shite! Cool.

I'll be doing the channeling as well, but I actually prefer the higher (stock height)floor for my project. My pans are solid (yay AZ!), so I'll only take the outside lip off, and make a patch panel to attach it to the heater channels. I don't want to deal with dropping the entire floor, making new pedal mounts, etc. At that point, I think I'd be leaning toward a tube frame.

I thought there would be drama back by the rear body mounts. I'll have to raise the ones that are in the wheel well (they needed to be widened due to the slightly narrowed rear), but I cut the inner mounts out when I took out the rear package tray/ firewall.

Since I want to have my head/ face squarely in the window/ windshield I'll take a few measurements. I may not channel it to the top of the heater channels, I'll only go as far as I need to bring the windows down to me. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

I'll slip the body over the pan, raise it to where I need it, then weld the mounts on.

Unibody, here I come.

Grizant- let's see those pics. Sounds like our 'leatherman' cars are moving along...

[vwfanatic]

oh, and rob, thanx for the pix....the labels on the floor pans are a real cool touch style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[Griznant]

Originally posted by Nick@Nov 9 2004, 05:46 AM
Man, alot more people doing alot more radical modifications nowadays. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Dancing.gif Competition style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



Hell, I'm just trying to keep up with you guys!

Joining this site was the best thing I ever did for that project. It got me fired up to try and contribute so I had to start cutting. I love the fabrication of my projects, it's usually the actual "finish" work that I never do so well. You know, paint, interior, etc. I won't have to worry about that with this one! I'm contemplating not even grinding down the welds. Why? Who cares!

I'll take some pics tonight after work and get them up tomorrow. Mine is a variation on a theme at this point, but it's a little bit different on how the channels drop down.

Grant

[PAPA_SMURF]

Ok after my measuring/research/brainstorming I came up with this for my car. It may help you. You can only channel the car 5" before the top of the engine compartment will hit a 36 horse fanshroud. You may be able to get more from a slant top shroud. Limitless with a t-3 shroud. Also your pedals will hit the bottom of the dash over 5" unless you get more creative. (maybe mount underdash pedals that are shortened?). You can retain the heater channnells(hold alot of strength in the body), by combining sectioning with channeling and keeping the sectioning look.

Trim 5" put of the body above the heater chanels in the front quarter, middle of the doors(between hinges) and rear qtr panels right above the heaterchanels. If you trim the skin of the body about a half inch back you can them weld the sectioned piece back on the botom below pan so that it apears the same length. Think kinda like ground affects in disquise. The doors will clear if you trim that lip off the pan. Sorry If I can't make it more visual. If you need a better explanation call me up 916 717 4259 after 7 or anytime durring the weekend. Be aware of the rear wheel wells. I still havnt figured out which way I am going. You have to have some really offset wheels for the back or they will hit. You may have to widen the rear track.

[Top_Fuel_Thomas]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bowdown.gif ive needed this thread for a while.

i think this'll be a cut, stand back... and cut some more type of job, makeing it up as you go.

just keep posting pictures!


for widening the rear track, could you use bus axels on a bug box?



TFTom

[Griznant]

Ta-da!

[attachmentid=2633]

Until I upload these onto the net, I'll have to break this down into multiple posts. I'll fix this when I get the pics up.

The dropped heater channel mount:
[attachmentid=2634]

I have to drill the holes out yet, but I'm waiting until I get everything fitted. At this point, most parts are just tacked (except the boxed mount which is fully welded).

[attachmentid=2635]

Shot of the rear mounting tab for the heater channel. A hole will be drilled in this to make up for the hole that was lost when I cut 4" off the rear bulkhead mounting.

[attachmentid=2636]

[attachmentid=2637]

Like I said, I'll edit these posts and consolidate them into one post once I get these uploaded to the net. Sorry for the multiples, but I thought you might want to see this.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smokin.gif

[mkparker]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bowdown.gif Awesome work Griznant! You guys are gonna make me have to do some work soon....thanks!

[Nick]

I merged the posts for you (FYI). Also I added this topic to the search thread.

So far looks very similar to my job. Can't believe you did that to an Oval window though style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yelling.gif



















What, you couldn't find a split window style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[crack monkey]

i think the body drop is the least of your worries... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif jk. right on bud!

[oldskool]

Originally posted by Griznant@Nov 10 2004, 05:08 AM
[attachmentid=2635]

Shot of the rear mounting tab for the heater channel. A hole will be drilled in this to make up for the hole that was lost when I cut 4" off the rear bulkhead mounting.


I was working on my ride last night and scoping a few things out:
The back end of the body going to take some work at the torsion section.

The sheetmetal there goes from quarter panel to fender mounting surface to wheel well. It'll have to be cut out and replaced with something fabricated. You can't just move that section of sheetmetal up because of the aforementioned curves.

I've got to be able to get to the rear torsion housing for servicing, lowering, etc... Luckly, I don't have the crazy-long IRS version. That's huge.

[Griznant]

Originally posted by Nick@Nov 10 2004, 05:46 AM
I merged the posts for you (FYI). Also I added this topic to the search thread.

So far looks very similar to my job. Can't believe you did that to an Oval window though style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yelling.gif


What, you couldn't find a split window style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


If I had one that was as rusty as this junker I would have done it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

When I saw the pics of yours yesterday I was like, "Wow, two people with the same idea, it MUST be the right one!" style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif




BTW, thanks for merging the pics. I appreciate it!

[Nick]

Also as a note, not sure if it's necessary??? I put square tubing across the dropped floor pans as it sits below the tunnel now. Keep it from flexing too much or something? Needed, style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif but doesn't take too long to do just in case

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Floor/18.jpg


Also for (future member's) reference, here's the dropped pans (left) compared to stock pans (right)
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Floor/9b.jpg

[oldskool]

Originally posted by Nick@Nov 10 2004, 11:52 AM
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nicanor/images/Floor/18.jpg



sassy! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif

looks good.

[ConductorX]

Incredible work... I am posting in the presence of greatness....

[Jon]

I was always under the impression that the term "BodyDrop" referred to Uni-bodied cars such as hondas and just got reassigned to everything else that had some work done to the body in order to lower it.
I thought it on;y reffered to taking the strut mounts and cutting them loose and welding them up a little higher and that was all.

Anyway awesome work guys can't wait to see them actually driven. Especially Nick, I can't see you doing anything but lying down Formula Vee style to drive that thing. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif

[oldskool]

Here's the part I was talking about:
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop54.jpg

This section needs to be raised because it goes right over the torsion assembly. You can't follow the wheel well because it needs to go straight up. It won't be the most attractive answer, but I guess I'll just cut it out and weld in a section of 3" tube or something.
I prefer the angles that the quarter-to-fender mount have, but without a beadroller, I don't think I can make that.

[crack monkey]

Originally posted by Jon@Nov 12 2004, 10:54 PM
Nick, I can't see you doing anything but lying down Formula Vee style to drive that thing. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

its alright jon.... he is small style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif

[Griznant]

oldskool,

I'm in the thick of this right now with the rear quarters. I'm shortening them up to fit the roof (decided not to shorten the chassis) so I think I can buy back some space that way. Coupled with the 2" sectioning job I did to the bottom of the car, I think it will be an interesting area to try and fix.

I'll post once I figure it out. I sectioned a door last night, and that was a crap-load of fun (NOT).

[oldskool]

Originally posted by Griznant@Nov 17 2004, 08:45 AM
oldskool,

I'm in the thick of this right now with the rear quarters.  I'm shortening them up to fit the roof (decided not to shorten the chassis) so I think I can buy back some space that way.  Coupled with the 2" sectioning job I did to the bottom of the car, I think it will be an interesting area to try and fix.

I'll post once I figure it out.  I sectioned a door last night, and that was a crap-load of fun (NOT).
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I've been staring at the pic for a bit now...
There are 2 bends on that fender mounting point. One inner- near the wheel well-- and one outer- near the quarter.
If I make the cut straight up from where it is now, it looks like I may be able to keep the outer bend intact. It looks like it might end up where that fender bolt hole was... But I don't think that's going to work for you with a 2" section.

[Nick]

Ya, forgo tabot that rear body mount/shock area. WHich also reminds me, if you section the body the rear quarter panels ovsioulsy would need to be sectioned as well. But by doing this the rear wheels gets tucked in more then before. Just something to keep in mind especially if you're running fenders, even if it's fenderless as well. I'll probably end up making a new set of quarter panels and/or widen the rear tracks to extend outside the body.

[Romain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I removed the rear luggage shelf [/b][/quote]

Hi everyone, I've juste started today to raise the body to work on that channeling (4 inches), and I'planning to remove this part soon, (there's no big problems to make the appropriate modifications on the front),

but I was wondering how to make sure that the body stay rigid enough while removing the rear luggage shelf,wich apparently derserves to strenghten it.
I'm gonna weld tubes to keep rigidity before cutting, but once the lower corners are 4 inches up there shall be no real flat area on the sides to weld it back on properly with the same rigidity...

Grant,Nick... you both seemed to have cut the entire body sections on the sides, but I'd like to keep the heater channels like they are;

Would any member have plans to make it remains rigid enough?
(a lot of the weight of the body is supported by this section) Shall we weld plates on the sides to avoid torsions etc....


Well I tried explain myself so that you understand everything, if something ain't clear tell me I'll try again with a dictionnary style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Nick]

Originally posted by Romain+Nov 19 2004, 05:37 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Romain @ Nov 19 2004, 05:37 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> but I was wondering how to make sure that the body stay rigid enough while removing the rear luggage shelf,wich apparently derserves to strenghten it.
[/b]

Just weld angle irons or tubes in the inner panel to keep it from flexing. But if the body will remain on the pans while it's being cut and rewelded it probably wouldn't be really needed since the heater channels will keep it alligned correctly.

<!--QuoteBegin-Romain@Nov 19 2004, 05:37 PM
Would any member have plans to make it remains rigid enough?
(a lot of the weight of the body is supported by this section) Shall we weld plates on the sides to avoid torsions etc....
[/quote]

I'll assume you're talking about the rear luggage area? As long as luggage area is welded back on it, that should be good enough (as good as stock). You still have the roof, 'B' pillar and other areas to keep the body from flexing anyways. Unless you're doing some slalom racing or anything major like that, I wouldn't worry too much about extra reinforcement. The only real concern I'd have is welding things back to keep the doors from opening/closing correctly once rewelded back together. But really as long as the body is bolted back onto the same holes on the heater channel everthing will be as back to stock anyways so wouldn't worry too much about inner bracing/alignment issues. At least that's my opinion.

I didn't put any temporary bracing when I worked on my car, I had everything planned out and was ready to weld some in until I realized by the time I was done everything would be in different places and will be making custom doors/doorframes anyways so allignment isn't an issue with me.

[oldskool]

Just to keep this alive and for future reference, I'll take some pics while I'm doing mine--- so we have different methods to look at.

Most of the guys wanted to lower their floor, but I didn't want to drop the pedal cluster on mine... so I'm dropping the body around the stock-height floor.

My body has been narrowed (a-la Leatherman chop), so the front bulkhead has been removed in a large chunk. This seemed like a decent width to trim the front bulk head. I also took measurements of the rear bulkhead and trimmed about 1" off it as well.

On the body, I cut off the heater tube (under the seat) and removed the remaining rear wheelhouse/ body mount.

We then removed the front axle and tried to slide the chassis thru the body like a cassette, but it was just too wide (especially around the B pillar). So I cut the pans in half the long way. This let the body slide on easliy. I'll have to re-weld the pans later, but it will be a much better fit. It's a good thinkg I 'restored' and painted this pan about a month ago!

Here's a pic, I'll get more later. This is simply mocked up, there is nothing welded yet. If you look close, you can see the bump in the firewall is offset a few inches. I'll return with more info.
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop63.jpg

Compare THIS:
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop47.jpg

to THIS:
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop60.jpg

[mkparker]

Looks killer! Thanks for the pics. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[Scott H]

Originally posted by oldskool
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop60.jpg


Damn, that's tasty. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/licklips.gif

[Griznant]

oldskool,

Did you try fitting your engine yet?


Have fun! (I know I am).

Ugh.

[hotrodheb]

http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop60.jpg

That looks awesome oldskool! Just wait until you get the weight of the motor in there.






It's got the look!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Dancing.gif

[oldskool]

Originally posted by Griznant@Dec 14 2004, 07:57 AM
oldskool,

Did you try fitting your engine yet?


Have fun! (I know I am).

Ugh.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

LOL!
I've been nervous about it since I began, but look:
http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop64.jpg

I know it's sitting in the wrong spot. There's a hole cut in my oval section that the PO did, I just need to enlarge is slightly to make this fit. It'll tuck in real nice. I'm half looking around to see if anybody's got one of those 80's aluminimum center mount shrouds that looks like a triangle. I wouldn't have to cut to get that shroud in.

I think your car is either lower or further back on the pan than mine...

[Griznant]

Originally posted by oldskool@Dec 14 2004, 08:09 AM

I think your car is either lower or further back on the pan than mine...
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



Well, on top of the channel, I did do a 2" section to it too, so it's lower. I also didn't extend my roof, it's still the stocker, so my wheelbase is shorter to fit the roof. It's sort of like apples and oranges, but I was curious how yours fit. I know that my entire inner vent section is gone now, and the fan is up behind it. Oh well, function follows form when it comes to hot rods. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[hotrodheb]

Originally posted by oldskool@Dec 14 2004, 08:09 AM
I'm half looking around to see if anybody's got one of those 80's aluminimum center mount shrouds that looks like a triangle. I wouldn't have to cut to get that shroud in.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

I have one of those shrouds, but unfortunately I am planning on using it in my car. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif But, I thought they still sold those??? Maybe try some of the off road places. since I see a lot of them in sandrails.

[vwfanatic]

keep the info coming....looks awesome style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[walt]

If I ever get around to finishing the Rat Patrol, I'm going to use a Pancake shroud.

[oldskool]

Originally posted by hotrodheb+Dec 14 2004, 08:20 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hotrodheb @ Dec 14 2004, 08:20 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-oldskool@Dec 14 2004, 08:09 AM
I'm half looking around to see if anybody's got one of those 80's aluminimum center mount shrouds that looks like a triangle.  I wouldn't have to cut to get that shroud in.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

I have one of those shrouds, but unfortunately I am planning on using it in my car. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif But, I thought they still sold those??? Maybe try some of the off road places. since I see a lot of them in sandrails.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]


...yeah, but who wants to spend money? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif That and this car doesn't get new parts, it just gets recycled ones (except for the important things like brakes, etc)

...besides, I saw one kicking around at my friends shop... I've got to see if it's still there.

Walt- I was going to go with the T3 pancake shroud, but I wasn't crazy about the extra length of the fan on the end (I'd like to bob the end of the decklid). But after a certain point, it's the only choice!

Thanks for all the style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif guys.

[Top_Fuel_Thomas]

Im still trying to wrap my brain round this idea! i keep coming up with more and more q's! :


oldskool, how is your motor going to fit then? stuck out behind the car like in the pic? but later on in your post you say you want to run a deck lid style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif im confused! *edit* i see now the shroud is sitting rear ward in that pic isnt it... doh style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

Griznat in you previous post you say you cut the frame horn back by 2 inches to help tuck the motor into the car, is it still threaded that far back or does it need tapping out?

how much can you channel a car befor you run into decklid clearance problems?

is there more room to tuck the motor up under the vent section useing an oval/split section than with the normal 70's style window/vent?



respect to all those out there actually doing this as opposed to me sitting inside thinking about doing this!

Thanks,
TFTom

[oldskool]

Sorry to confuse, I was posting this so others could give it their twist and learn as well...
In the pic w/ the fan shroud-- the shroud is actually installed further back. I was just using that pic for reference-- it's just resting on that case. There is space between the outer vents and the inner firewall to trim slightly so the shroud will fit. You'll be able to peek into the vents and see the motor.

Grizzant's car is done differently than mine, and his motor is in a totally different spot.

I will be running a decklid-- at least part of one. I have aspirations of making a bobbed 'sprint car' tail for it, but that may not happen. I will probably take an early 60's lid, cut it so most of it is shortened with the body (2-3" long), but leave a 'tail' around the style line that goes thru the license light. I'll curve that down and under the motor for a faux-rear end.

You can channel the car as much as you'd like. You can run Type 3 tins and gain lots of clearance back. And yes, there is more room under the oval window as compared to my 63 window. Possibly 2" or so!

[p-nor]

chris, i saw this on ebay. it ends soon so maybe nobody will bid and you can offer him $10. i've got my eye on his hide-away and stock crank but no need for a shroud. maybe nobody'll bid on any of it! we could get a good deal.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...4510823243&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34202&item=4510823243&rd=1)







paul

[oldskool]

Originally posted by p-nor@Dec 14 2004, 01:12 PM
chris, i saw this on ebay. it ends soon so maybe nobody will bid and you can offer him $10. i've got my eye on his hide-away and stock crank but no need for a shroud. maybe nobody'll bid on any of it! we could get a good deal.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...4510823243&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34202&item=4510823243&rd=1)







paul
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


The one I was talking about has the alternator right in the middle-- it uses a special alt stand, too. It's shaped a lot like that, tho. I'm goning to hold off on that just yet-- let me see what's at my friends shop...

[p-nor]

the center mount shrouds are cool. if your friend has one you can use go for it! they do still make them but they're not cheap.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...sspagename=WD1V (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7901582239&category=34234&sspagename=WD1V)


http://www.vwispwest.com/ebay/BP-4521-7.jpg


paul

[1slo3]

you could use the angle; aka 'slash' shroud. i have a chrome one on my 2332 and it cools fine, plus it uses a standard alt/gen tower.

[crack monkey]

oldschool.... will that shroud fit behind the package tray? if so then you could shorten the package tray so it would fit....

another thought would be to use a thing shroud. they are shorter and might fit

[Top_Fuel_Thomas]

what does a type 3 fan shroud look like though?

if its anything like a T4 flat shroud its ugly in my book.


TFTom

[Griznant]

When I cut the frame horns back, I actually cut off the threaded portion, removed a 2" section of the horns, and then welded the threaded portion back on. It worked well, and the axles still fit, but the angles of them have changed, and I have concerns on this. However, Porsche did a similar thing when they changed the wheelbase on the 911/912s in '69, so hopefully I won't wear out CVs prematurely. Still, with the amount of driving a car like this will get, I'll probably be fine.

oldskool covered the other items you questioned as well, so I don't think I need to repeat much of it. He was spot on in his answers.

As for the Type 3 tins/shroud, they are very similar to the Type 4, and yes, they are not particularly attractive in my book either (says I, having both T3s and T4s as well). The funny thing is that I have more than enough clearance to run the T3 tin and shroud now with the amount of space between the decklid and the engine, but it would look sort of strange in my book. Also remember that I'm running a true Porsche engine, and it is physically shorter than a T1 and has a different fan (more like an old 36hp fan).

Oh, and I bobbed my decklid too. I need to get pictures of that as well. The cuts on the bob arc to a point in the center of the decklid, almost like something you'd see on the bat-mobile. Not sure if I like it yet, but it's a solution.

[PAPA_SMURF]

one observation:


If you bury the shroud so far into that area you will have to take your body off to pull the motor. Something I ran across on mine. I ave a 36 horse shroud and its the same height as the center fan shroud.


You could always run a waterboxer and solve all your problems. we used to put chevy valves in the heads and port em out back in the day. I think you can use a bug cam too, so you can get any grind you want. 48 ida's baby, just re port the bottom of some short manifolds.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[Scott H]

Originally posted by crack monkey@Dec 14 2004, 07:52 PM
another thought would be to use a thing shroud. they are shorter and might fit

Which year Thing shrouds are shorter? I've got a '73 Thing shroud and it's the same height as a regular doghouse shroud. The only difference is that it doesn't have the fresh air snouts.
Didn't some of the Brazilian Volkswagens (Puma maybe?) have the short shrouds too? Seems like CB used to sell those short ones. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused.gif

[dez]

they are shorter, by about half an inch!!!

which isnt much use really.

[PapaG]

Search for Gol , I thing that Brian (Isol3) had bought one,,,, I thing it may be shorter.

[Top_Fuel_Thomas]

Originally posted by PAPA_SMURF@Dec 15 2004, 08:52 PM
You could always run a waterboxer and solve all your problems. 


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bowdown.gif
that is a bloody fantastic idea


thanks alot i think i might do that!

http://www.tangen.nu/57oval/57oval0026.JPG

look at all that room!

TFTom

[oldskool]

Originally posted by Top_Fuel_Thomas@Dec 16 2004, 08:42 AM
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bowdown.gif
that is a bloody fantastic idea


thanks alot i think i might do that!

http://www.tangen.nu/57oval/57oval0026.JPG

look at all that room!

TFTom
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



...until you factor in the size a radiator... and the fact that it needs air flow!

[Nick]

Brasilian (I think)
http://69.143.146.45/vw/low-profile-engine.jpg

Gol:
http://69.143.146.45/vw/Gol-engine.jpg
http://69.143.146.45/vw/gol-engine1.jpg

one-offs
http://69.143.146.45/vw/porsche-engine.jpg
http://69.143.146.45/vw/engine-tin1.jpg

[Griznant]

Nick,

The top is definitely from a T1 based Brasilia.

The bottom two are converted Type4s in case anyone is interested in those.

Grant

[dez]

the second on up isnt a one off, its a reichart horisontal porsche fan kit for the type 4.

[Jon]

http://69.143.146.45/vw/low-profile-engine.jpg
I have always wanted one of these. I have even considered chopping a stock shroud into one.

Also just a thought, the guy that owns this red beetle with a shortened and raises rear axle. He's in Orlando and its been in quite a few magazines.... anywya he cut notches in his shroud to clear the hinge brackets. I know he didn't channel the body and all that. But it is an option to consider in addition to a different shroud.

[PAPA_SMURF]

Originally posted by oldskool+Dec 16 2004, 09:17 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(oldskool @ Dec 16 2004, 09:17 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Top_Fuel_Thomas@Dec 16 2004, 08:42 AM
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bowdown.gif
that is a bloody fantastic idea


thanks alot i think i might do that!

http://www.tangen.nu/57oval/57oval0026.JPG

look at all that room!

TFTom
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



...until you factor in the size a radiator... and the fact that it needs air flow!
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]

dude, you cut the whole fucking front apron area out of your car. You don't have room for a fuckin radiator. mustang radiators are small and kick ass.

[oldskool]

Originally posted by PAPA_SMURF@Dec 16 2004, 09:46 PM
dude, you cut the whole fucking front apron area out of your car. You don't have room for a fuckin radiator. mustang radiators are small and kick ass.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Nope. The axle goes way up front, and all the suspension will be inboard. The front area that was open for the suspension will be all sheeted in.

I wasn't raining on the H20 parade, I am actually quite a fan of them (I've owned 2 H20 Parts companies). I was just reminding them that there are extra pieces to be aware of--- what was pictured was not a complete waterboxer setup.

Anyway, let's try and keep this thread on topic. It's about channeling, and it's in the 'too lazy for search' thread... so it needs to stay kinda to the point. Nobody wants to wade thru 5 pages of arguing to find the info. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[oldskool]

Finally, some more pics I promised.

http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop63.jpg
On this pic you see that I cut the pan in half and trimmed the front and rear pan bulkheads to get the body down to where we needed it. You can barely see the part that was cut out, it's just sitting in there for fit.

http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop65.jpg
in this pic, you cen see the pan half resting in the car unwelded... look to the rear bulkhead-- see that primer? under there is a 1x1x8" of square tubing to act like a spacer. It's not a strong enough area to cary the weight of the car, tho. We'll add that later.

http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop66.jpg
Here you can see the floor welded in place, and a patch panel needs to be made for that naked corner where the pan lifts up. Look closely into that corner and you'll see the weld on the previously mentioned 1x1" tube. It's covered in weld-thru primer. Oh, BTW--- does anyone else get crazy splatter when using weld-thru primer? The welds look awful whereever I use it... that section that looks like I chewed thru it was the old jacking point. Incase you hadn't guessed--- it's got to come out first!

http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop67.jpg
You can really see the amount of the drop in this pic. I still need to make some patch panels where the side is open. Why? I dunno. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif Just gotta do that.

http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop68.jpg
Where the floors end up! you can see that I still need to remove the other half of the seat bracket and finish that weld.

http://rsjparts.com/chris/63/chop70big.jpg
Still got lots more to go, I'll takes pics of the bracing and the package tray work I'm going to do when I get back from cold-ass New Jersey for the holidays. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif

[PAPA_SMURF]

awesome work man!! the welds are nothing a grinder and some sanding disks and a die grinder cant fix...

[oldskool]

Originally posted by PAPA_SMURF@Dec 21 2004, 11:05 PM
awesome work man!! the welds are nothing a grinder and some sanding disks and a die grinder cant fix...
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I was excited to put a set in the car and make vroom, vroom noises, so I left the grinding for later.

Then, while making those noises, I thought about just bedlining right over them for that 'C-section scar' look. Kinda like a badge of courage. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif

[PAPA_SMURF]

leaving the welds would be cool. total rat style. You shoulda left the welds on the roof too, that would have been tight.

[vwfanatic]

chris - thanx a ton for those pix. i'm sitting here with massive wood right now (glad nobody else has gotten to work yet style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif ), what is your thought on the body being permanently welded to the pan? do you see it presenting any possible long term problems????

[mkparker]

Yeah man, thanks for taking the time to take pics and post them! I also think welding it all together may be a good plan...anybody have an opinion? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused.gif

[oldskool]

checked V-rods right before I'm hopping on a plane.... yep, addicted!


Anyway- the car will be a unibody. The other side of the front bulkhead is already welded to the pan and so are the floors. the rear is next.

The only problem I saw was that the torsion housing would be 'buried' under the body, and that would make it impossible to adjust/ replace parts. I'm going to clearance the side so I can get to it, I haven't decided on how--- either like a beetle (visable) or like a Ghia/ T3 (behind a little panel).

Other than that, the car will be a lot like a unibody H20 Car...

I may do a 'mini cage' later-- -basically a hoop extending up from the torsion housing and braced to the frame horns and the sills at the door--- there'd be a few tabs attaching to the body.

As far as ground/ unground welds... I want a finished car. The original plan was to leave it ugly, but at this point I'd like it to look good. If I do leave the welds unground on the inside, they will be painted/ covered with bedliner... all the welds will be a 'reminder' of what went on. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smilespin.gif

[hotrodheb]

Originally posted by vwfanatic@Dec 22 2004, 04:49 AM
what is your thought on the body being permanently welded to the pan? do you see it presenting any possible long term problems????
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

I hope it is never a problem, 'cause that is how my truck was done as well!!!


Oldskool, style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bowdown.gif That is looking SWEET! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bowdown.gif


PapaSmurf, Is your avatar a little teaser of what you car is looking like now???

[PAPA_SMURF]

tee...hee...hee....


I'll never tell.......

[hotrodheb]

Originally posted by PAPA_SMURF@Dec 22 2004, 09:40 PM
tee...hee...hee....


I'll never tell.......
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

If that is what it's going to look like, it is going to blow away a lot of people at the next bugorama! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Dancing.gif

[PAPA_SMURF]

I think I will be at paso this year.......haven't decided. I dont think they will even know its a bug anymore so I shouldn't get any flack from the gate nazi's

[Jon]

Weld through Primer. Are you talking about the Cold Galvanizing Primer ?

If so I got a tip, not for welding but for using that stuff. If you look at the head of the spray cap there is a small little plastic piece where the paint comes out. Is you take a small screw or a small drill and slowly turn it into the hole the small plastic piece will come out. This gives you a little hole that the WD-40 tubes will fit into.

What this is good for is you can bend the hell out of the tubes and spray up inside body panels to protect the backsides of your welds. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

This will work better for you if you use a extra tip, that way you will still be able to use the normal spray tip as well although I haven't noticed to much difference with out the plastic thing. Just remember to clean out your tubes.

Hope this helps someone.
Oh yeah great work guys, I have been trying to explain this to a friend of mine and I can't seem to get him to check out this site. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif
I'll keep trying though.

[4pumpedCL]

Mr Oldschool,

How many inches did you channel that car? Thanks.