Cut-Weld-Drive Forums

Go Back   Cut-Weld-Drive Forums > The VolksRodders Forum > The Cutting Board

The Cutting Board Cut... Weld... DRIVE.


User Information
Your Avatar

Stuff to check out...

Cool stuff you NEED!

Forum Stats
Members: 17,687
Threads: 32,346
Posts: 546,686
Total Online: 522

Newest Member: Tylerted

Latest Threads

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 9th, 2007, 07:26 PM   #1
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

My brakes are weak in back, and basically nonexistent in front. I've got all new lines, MC, and wheel cylinders.

My boss and I tried to bleed it this evening for a while, but the fronts never felt correct (when pumped & held, the pedal didn't drop to the floor it should) and the pedal was nearly floored in order for any braking power to be apparent.

A buddy says "he's got his money on the master cylinder blowing a cup seal, and that it should be replaced." I think that sounds pretty reasonable, but I wanted other opinions.

Has anyone else had something similar?

A couple pics, for whatever they're worth. Please tell me if things are not where they should be.


__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2007, 07:32 PM   #2
VWnimrod
Forum Member
 
VWnimrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 94
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Did you adjust your brake shoes ?
__________________
1956 Bug*1964 Bug*1966 Bug*1967 Bug*1968 Bug*1969 Bug
VWnimrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2007, 07:33 PM   #3
ThrasherBill
Forum Member
 
ThrasherBill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Burnaby, B.C. Canada eh
Posts: 5,479
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Looks like everything is in the right place. No apparent leaks anywhere? Shoes all adjusted properly? I have heard of people bench bleeding master cylinders but I don't know how to do it.
__________________
ThrasheR

a silent neighbor lady watching bremelo seeking canadian pinstriping lurker~

I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Don't worry about other people.Most of them don't care about you.
ThrasherBill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2007, 07:47 PM   #4
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

I spun the adjusting stars out to where each wheel would spin about 1/4 turn, then we would try the bleeding sequence.

One thing to mention, though...we didn't bleed directly off the master cylinder, just off the wheel cylinders. Is that the right procedure?

Thanks!
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2007, 07:48 PM   #5
purplepeopleeater
Forum Member
 
purplepeopleeater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kennewick, Washington
Posts: 2,703
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

I seem to always have this problem, Muirs book tells ya some steps on this
purplepeopleeater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2007, 07:53 PM   #6
ThrasherBill
Forum Member
 
ThrasherBill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Burnaby, B.C. Canada eh
Posts: 5,479
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

The usual procedure is to bleed them from the wheel cylinders starting from the farthest from the master. So 1. right rear 2. left rear 3 right front 4. left front. Try backing the shoes off a bit, maybe just a click or 2 on the stars and bleeding the whole system again. You might not be getting enough movement from the cylinders to move enough fluid to bleed out properly.
__________________
ThrasheR

a silent neighbor lady watching bremelo seeking canadian pinstriping lurker~

I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Don't worry about other people.Most of them don't care about you.
ThrasherBill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2007, 08:07 PM   #7
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

I've actually got Muir's book, though I didn't read the bleeding section. It seemed like it should be like any other bleeding scenario...silly me!

And yes, that's exactly how we bled them, Bill. Rear right>Rear left>Front right>Front left No dice.

When I adjusted the stars the first time, it loosened significantly when brakes were reapplied, so I had to adjust again. I'm pretty sure the shoes inside were not centered initially, so that would explain that.

I believe the brake pin that actuates the MC is in the same position it was when I got the car, and the boss says that it doesn't feel sloppy. Is it possible, though, that the bolt is too far screwed into the pedal (towards the cab/away from the MC)?

I'll try taking a click or two off and see if that helps.

If the star position retainers (little spring things...kinda...) that keep the star from moving aren't snug to the star, could the star readjust itself every time the brakes are applied?


OH....and the fender thing. I'm running 195/60R14's (maybe 65?..crap) right now on the front, and I've got about 1/2" of clearance to the fender lip. How easy would it be to roll the fender out? Also, what tire sizes would you recommend if I was to stay with stock fenders?
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com

Last edited by cdscowboy; March 9th, 2007 at 08:14 PM.
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 01:52 AM   #8
purplemyth
moody witch
 
purplemyth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: central ga.
Posts: 12,169
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

when doing the fronts in ours, they never really went to the floor either, but seemed to stop fine anyways.
We have had a few times it was the MCyl, brand new, had to exchange. If you live on a quiet street or have room in your yard, move it back and forth a few times or take it around the block, kinda helps to seat things in. Then try the rebleed and adjust.
As for bench bleeding, done it both ways and got mad one night, cracked the bleeders open and let it drip for a few hours.

keep at it
__________________
Like it, Click it, support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishguts
My attraction to volksrods is that these are bottom-feeders where things are still real ... people scraping together parts, doing their own work and often on a tight budget. Real hot rodding is still alive here.
purplemyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 04:23 AM   #9
dailydrivervw
Forum Member
 
dailydrivervw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: east central CT
Posts: 618
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Starting from the beginning: Did you get the angled slot on each adjuster screw to match the angle on each brake shoe? Still should get a pedal even if you messed up

Next, check for free play between the rod and master cylinder. There should be a couple of millimeters of play before the rod touches the piston. It is best to feel it by hand instead of you foot. The TOP of the pedal should move maybe 1/8" to 1/4" before you feel the rod hit the piston. If there is no freeplay it won't bleed right.

Next thing is bleeding problems. Rears usually bleed out OK. But the front cylinders are sometimes a pain on some years because the wheel cylinder is mounted at an angle. Then if the bleed port is not at the highest point, then air can get trapped in both front cylinders. I had one 1967 with new Italian made wheel cylinders that I could not get a good pedal due to the angle, and actually had to pull the drum & shoes, then unbolt the cylinder to turn it so the bleeder was at the highest point to get the last of the air out ! But that's the only bug that I had to do that.

Sounds like you still have air in the fronts because it sounds like you are checking each wheel to see if it locks with the pedal pushed down?

I made a home-made pressure bleeder using a 61-66 VW windshield washer bottle that has the tire air valve on top. Then a hose off the bottom to a spare brake fluid resevoir cap with a hose fitting installed. I use that on the ones I have trouble with. You only need a few pounds of pressure to bleed it out.
__________________
That was then, This is now.

Don't fall for the AT&T rebate BS; you can hold your hand on your a$$ waiting for it. There, I feel better now.
dailydrivervw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 05:48 AM   #10
FONZY
Forum Member
 
FONZY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sanger, TX
Posts: 2,820
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

first double check yer adjustments of the brakes. you should tighten the 'star wheel' thingy until the drum juuuust begins to drag the shoes when spun, then back off 1/2 a turn on the adjuster.

then set the brake pedal connector shaft. its rod running from the brake pedal, through the front firewall, into the hole in the master cylinder. it is basically a threaded rod, if you rotate it it will get longer in one direction, shorter in another. it should JUST engage the Master cylinder (at the proper length). lengthen it until you have aproximately 1/2" - 3/4" travel MAX at the top of the brake pedal.

THEN go through the bleeding procedure again, and perhaps jack the rear of the car up above leve when bleeding the rears, jack up the front when bleeding the fronts. bleed each wheel cylinder till the fluid comes out clear (free of bubbles) this may take a good bit of fluid to accomplish. dont rush it, let the bubbles rise up to the high points as you go.

if assembled properly and with good german parts ( I wouldnt skimp on parts when it comes to brakes) you should be able to lock all four wheels simultaniously with half a pedal:)

people seem to really like going to disc brakes, but I have always found the drums work really freakin good when setup properly. they will overheat rather fast but I never did alot of 'rally' driving myself:)

good luck!
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
FONZY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 07:15 AM   #11
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Thanks for the help everyone! I'm heading out there now to (clean up a bit, then) get back to them brakes!
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 07:00 PM   #12
bugzaper
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: .
Posts: 726
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

I have pumped and bleed VW brakes until I was blue in the face! The brakes are the only thing I just can't stand on VWs. I ordered a full set of disc brakes and will be trashing the drums as soon as the discs come in.

If its not bleeding than its constantly adjusting........thats for the birds!

"Good Luck"
bugzaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 08:04 PM   #13
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Got a new (remanufactured) master today, with the same results as yesterday.

Okay so here's what's going on:+

When all lines are open, the pedal goes to the floor, I feel the piston being actuated by the pin, but nothing happens for the fronts. There is a leak where the reservoir line for the front lines comes in. The rubber grommet/holder for the plastic spigget is where the brake fluid comes out. The front wheel cyl. don't give a good shot of fluid when bled.

The rear brakes hold and bleed fine, like they're supposed to. I know they only account for 20-25% of braking power, so I'm taking that into account with their strength.

We also tried different clamping arrangements. When on the rear lines, the pedal continues to go to the floor, as it would if all lines were open. When on the front lines, the pedal travels 2/3 of the total pedal travel length before becoming rock solid (ie: won't travel further).

Our theory is that the master cylinder's front seal (for the front lines) is either not seating properly or has blown, forcing the fluid to come out where the reservoir comes in.

I'm planning on buying a NEW new...not remanufactured...master cylinder and taking the remanned one back.

Any input/advice/anything?
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 09:24 PM   #14
DirtyFokker
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS!
Posts: 226
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

I have actually had to bleed a master at the master before to remove all the air...could try that.
DirtyFokker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 09:36 PM   #15
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

You mean the 10mm bolt in front of the rear reservoir spigget? That's where you'd bleed it, correct?
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2007, 11:13 PM   #16
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Okay so I've been doing some reading, mostly over at the samba, and it looks like a power bleed is what I need.

One method is with a garden sprayer and a 1/4" plastic hose connection to the reservoir cap.
The other is to run a pressurized line (air line) at 3psi to the reservoir cap.

View the thread here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=207911
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2007, 03:28 AM   #17
dailydrivervw
Forum Member
 
dailydrivervw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: east central CT
Posts: 618
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Quote:
cdscowboyYou mean the 10mm bolt in front of the rear reservoir spigget? That's where you'd bleed it, correct?
NO! , That is a special bolt that has a pin on the end that keeps the front piston from going to far back. Don't take it out! Bleeding the master means bleeding right at the openings for each brake line.



Quote:
The rear brakes hold and bleed fine, like they're supposed to. I know they only account for 20-25% of braking power, so I'm taking that into account with their strength.
NO AGAIN! The rears should be able to lock fully!, All 4 wheels should be able to lock completely in a panic stop.



Quote:
cdscowboyOkay so I've been doing some reading, mostly over at the samba, and it looks like a power bleed is what I need.
WTF.... READ what was said to you yesterday morning here on VOLKSRODS!...BEFORE you ran out to get another master cyl.....and then run to SAMBA to get the same info?????




5 or 6 of us asked you about brake adjustments. Crank those stars until the star can't go anymore; then back off 5-6 notches for now. That will get you in the ball park for bleeding. After bleeding you can fine tune the stars if needed.

One last thing to try BEFORE building a pressure bleeder:
Open the rear bleeders and "leave them open" until you get the fronts to bleed correctly. I know the book says farthest first for bleeding but the rears are messing you up right now.

Open one front bleeder and put a hose on the bleeder to a glass jar that has an inch of fluid in it. Have someone GENTLY push the pedal dowm and then SlOWLY let the pedal back up. KEEP doing this until you get a good flow. You may have to jump from one front to the other front to finally get some decent flow. If & when you get good flow on fronts, then tighten those front bleeders and then bleed the rears back out.

AND like was said here yesterday by some of us: make sure you have that TRUE freeplay at the brake push-rod before that rod even touches the piston!!!!!! Brakes won't bleed right if you have that to tight!
__________________
That was then, This is now.

Don't fall for the AT&T rebate BS; you can hold your hand on your a$$ waiting for it. There, I feel better now.
dailydrivervw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2007, 04:17 AM   #18
emills
Forum Member
 
emills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ridgeville, Indiana
Posts: 99
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Ive havent messed with vw brakes yet but on a motorcycle you almost always have to prime the mastercylinder making sure there is no air in it.
emills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2007, 12:15 PM   #19
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Quote:
Originally Posted by dailydrivervw
NO! , That is a special bolt that has a pin on the end that keeps the front piston from going to far back. Don't take it out! Bleeding the master means bleeding right at the openings for each brake line.




NO AGAIN! The rears should be able to lock fully!, All 4 wheels should be able to lock completely in a panic stop.




WTF.... READ what was said to you yesterday morning here on VOLKSRODS!...BEFORE you ran out to get another master cyl.....and then run to SAMBA to get the same info?????




5 or 6 of us asked you about brake adjustments. Crank those stars until the star can't go anymore; then back off 5-6 notches for now. That will get you in the ball park for bleeding. After bleeding you can fine tune the stars if needed.

One last thing to try BEFORE building a pressure bleeder:
Open the rear bleeders and "leave them open" until you get the fronts to bleed correctly. I know the book says farthest first for bleeding but the rears are messing you up right now.

Open one front bleeder and put a hose on the bleeder to a glass jar that has an inch of fluid in it. Have someone GENTLY push the pedal dowm and then SlOWLY let the pedal back up. KEEP doing this until you get a good flow. You may have to jump from one front to the other front to finally get some decent flow. If & when you get good flow on fronts, then tighten those front bleeders and then bleed the rears back out.

AND like was said here yesterday by some of us: make sure you have that TRUE freeplay at the brake push-rod before that rod even touches the piston!!!!!! Brakes won't bleed right if you have that to tight!
Please calm down :).

I did adjust the stars, as mentined earlier.

The rears will skid on gravel, so they are locking up. They've got pressure.

We've tried leaving all 4 open, once overnight to let them drip out, and then yesterday we had them all open and pumped them out till they were all squirting. If closing the fronts and leaving the backs will make a difference, then we'll try that.

I tested freeplay, and it is correct. I've got about 1/4", which is what I've read is correct.

I'll try the glass jar method before I do the power bleed. Are you telling me to leave the rears open while I do the glass jar? Or close them before starting in on the fronts w/the jar? Thanks for the clarification.

I appreciate the help, but please read all the post before you get mad at me...we're all friends here
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2007, 03:44 AM   #20
dailydrivervw
Forum Member
 
dailydrivervw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: east central CT
Posts: 618
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

I'm not mad, it's just that several posters let you know that some bugs just don't bleed out real quick, and everyone who took the time to answer is just trying to save you time & frustration. The WTF was to get your full attention

Back to the brakes.......


What I meant by leaving the rears open: Sometimes on those cars that have bleeding problems, having the rears bled out seems to mess up the bleeding of the fronts. I have no idea why.

Yes, leave them open so there is no pedal pressure left. Now you have full travel on the pedal to help bleeding the fronts. Start by loosening one front metal line right at the master, and then slowly work the pedal. That will be sort of like "bench-bleeding" the master. If it spits air for a short time and clears up, that's good. Then go out to the front bleeders. If you can't get the bleeders to do the same, then use the glass jar thing.

I think what is going wrong is that there is so much air in the whole front system that the backpressure from that air wont allow the fluid to get sucked into the top hose of the master.

Pressure bleed would be faster if you already built the the stuff to do it, but trying that stuff may work. Pressure bleeding can get the air that is trapped ABOVE the bleed port because the fast initial squirt causes turbulence in the wheel cylinder causing the bubble to move. That's my theory, and I am sticking to it

As I said before, I did have one customers bug that would not completely bleed out the fronts. It had a spongy pedal yet some braking could be felt on the fronts while testing. I think those wheel cylinders had the bleeder port drilled wrong, as even pressure bleeding did not get the last few trapped bubbles out.

The OLD time mechanics sometimes used a thin feeler gauge slipped past the top of the wheel cylinder pistons. The feeler gauge would let the last air out as the gauge went past the rubber cup inside. I have never tried as I didn't want to nick the cup.
__________________
That was then, This is now.

Don't fall for the AT&T rebate BS; you can hold your hand on your a$$ waiting for it. There, I feel better now.
dailydrivervw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2007, 06:07 AM   #21
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Thanks DDvw. I'm hoping this may relieve the pressure that's causing my MC to leak right at the filler nozzle, but I've got my doubts. I think it's just a shitty MC.
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2007, 06:48 AM   #22
dailydrivervw
Forum Member
 
dailydrivervw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: east central CT
Posts: 618
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Quote:
I'm hoping this may relieve the pressure that's causing my MC to leak right at the filler nozzle, but I've got my doubts.

Something is wrong there. Those new/rebuilt masters usually come with the plastic hose connector & rubber seal already installed.....and they are usually really tight. So tight that it is difficult to rotate the plastic fitting to aim at the hoses coming from the resevoir. Never had one leak like that.

Maybe the blue fluid hoses are leaking? or pinhole in the metal feed pipe above?
__________________
That was then, This is now.

Don't fall for the AT&T rebate BS; you can hold your hand on your a$$ waiting for it. There, I feel better now.
dailydrivervw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2007, 02:16 PM   #23
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Well I've since removed the remanned MC and put in a Varga from the local VW shop here. Tried working on it for the last 5 hours to no avail.

Broke down and took it to the shop (same one where I got the MC). They said they might be able to look at it today, but probably tomorrow.

We shall see....
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2007, 07:56 PM   #24
cdscowboy
Forum Member
 
cdscowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Well, I don't really have any super-definitive answer for anyone else having this problem. The shop replaced a hardline and a couple rubber lines, and did a vacuum bleed, and they got them to work fairly well. They're not at 100%, but once the shoes break in and the brake fluid burns off the shoes, it should improve!

Here's a pic w/the drop spindles, for your viewing pleasure:
__________________
1970 T1

Build

www.99westcustoms.com
cdscowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2007, 08:31 PM   #25
ThrasherBill
Forum Member
 
ThrasherBill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Burnaby, B.C. Canada eh
Posts: 5,479
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Yet again...help me! Brakes & fenders

Glad you finally got it worked out. The car looks great, that stance is perfect for those wheels
__________________
ThrasheR

a silent neighbor lady watching bremelo seeking canadian pinstriping lurker~

I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Don't worry about other people.Most of them don't care about you.
ThrasherBill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ALL text, images, graphics and content herein are Copyright 2002 - 2013 Three Pugs Design - Cut Weld Drive Forums