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Old January 12th, 2004, 11:19 AM   #76
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Yea Walt,some people dont know kick ass cars if they hit them at 120mph!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smokin.gif[/img] By the way, do you know if them kit cars are gonna come back in production or how many are left????
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Old January 12th, 2004, 11:35 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by dez@Jan 12 2004, 11:35 AM
walt, i cant even be arsed to argue with u about why i dont like your car, but i dont think its really necessary to lower yourself to base insults if someone says something you dont like. if i did that id get the shit kicked out of me twice a day.
I would have guessed four times a day minimum.
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Old January 12th, 2004, 11:44 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by type3rod@Jan 12 2004, 12:19 PM
Yea Walt,some people dont know kick ass cars if they hit them at 120mph!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smokin.gif[/img] By the way, do you know if them kit cars are gonna come back in production or how many are left????
I really don't know how many are still around but every time I find one I try to keep track of it. I've been driving my car now for about three years and have only seen about six total including E-bay cars. I have talked to Speedway Motors about starting up their kit again but they said they won't. They claim they only sold about 30 kits from the time they bought it from Fuller in the 70's to the early 90's when they dropped the kit from their line.

I will build them but they will be more expensive than most people will pay. I am also very interested in building other VW powered Street Rods. I have a couple that I would really like to build.
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Old January 12th, 2004, 11:48 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by gowjobs@Jan 12 2004, 10:22 AM
Like I said, Kit Car Magazine used to list a VX-23 kit under Total Performances product line that was quite a bit like Walt's.
this bothered me, so i just got off the phone with TP and they assure me that they have NEVER marketed a VW t-bucket kit or any other VW based kit. They knew of Andy Brizio's kit but They have never done such a kit. I'd love to see that ad, maybe it was a company with a similar name. Can you see if you can find the ad.....i'm really curious.
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Old January 12th, 2004, 11:51 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by walt+Jan 12 2004, 03:44 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(walt @ Jan 12 2004, 03:44 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-type3rod@Jan 12 2004, 12:19 PM
Yea Walt,some people dont know kick ass cars if they hit them at 120mph!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smokin.gif[/img] By the way, do you know if them kit cars are gonna come back in production or how many are left????
I really don't know how many are still around but every time I find one I try to keep track of it. I've been driving my car now for about three years and have only seen about six total including E-bay cars. I have talked to Speedway Motors about starting up their kit again but they said they won't. They claim they only sold about 30 kits from the time they bought it from Fuller in the 70's to the early 90's when they dropped the kit from their line.

I will build them but they will be more expensive than most people will pay. I am also very interested in building other VW powered Street Rods. I have a couple that I would really like to build. [/b][/quote]
walt - I realize that the frame of your car is a pretty impressive creature, and I could see it adding considerably to the cost of the kit/car. Do you thing it would be possible/feasable/sensable to build a chassis that would be more like a standard t-bucket to help keep cost down?
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Old January 12th, 2004, 11:59 AM   #81
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Ahhh, come on, a little salsa every once in a while helps keep the colon clean. :D
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Old January 12th, 2004, 12:09 PM   #82
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>this bothered me, so i just got off the phone with TP and they assure me that they have NEVER marketed a VW t-bucket kit or any other VW based kit. They knew of Andy Brizio's kit but They have never done such a kit. I'd love to see that ad, maybe it was a company with a similar name. Can you see if you can find the ad.....i'm really curious. [/b][/quote]

I'll look in old issues. I found the kit listed in with TP's Pro Street T, T-bucket and Model A coupe kits in the annual Kit Car buyers' guide issue. I think my buddy has a newer one sitting in his garage, I'll check his.

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Old January 12th, 2004, 12:10 PM   #83
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thanx dave - should be interesting

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Old January 12th, 2004, 12:27 PM   #84
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>bzzzzzzzz-wrong
not all springs (or methods of springing) are created equal. besides "stiffness" there is "rate". also some springs will actually release more energy than is applied to them. also different methods of suspending a chassis on it's wheels contribute to the handling characteristics of the vehicle.
[/b][/quote]

Bullshit.

In bump,the tires react acording to the spring rate at the wheel,
and the stiffness of the shock. Period.
How does the tire know what kind of spring you have ? It doesn't.

In roll,roll couple distribution,weight distribution,center of gravity,roll centers,instantaneous center,camber curve,bump steer,
initial alignment,and tire selection enter into the equation.

The tires can't tell if your running push rods,pull rods,rocker arms, coil overs,
Mcphearson struts,transverse leaf,parallel leaf,quarter eliptic,semi eliptic,three quarter eliptic,full eliptic leaf springs,or air bags.
The tires can't tell if your progressive wheel rate is the result of progressively wound coils,helper leafs,or some rising rate geometric linkage.

Many design decisions for production cars are based on packaging,and cost,
rather than on absolute performance.
Ford used transverse leafs because it was cheaper than parallel leafs.They used springs with a high arch to get enough suspension travel for the rough roads of the period.Opel,among others,used transverse leafs on their IFS in the '70s.
Corvette still uses a transverse rear leaf on their IRS.
Leaf springs can be made to give a progressive rate,which makes them popular for trucks.The more the spring is loaded,the stiffer it gets.
Mcphearson(sp) struts have become popular,not because they are a superior design,but becasue the are cheaper to make and cheaper to assemble.
I'm guessing VW choose torsion bars for the same reason they are still used on present day Sprint Cars. Light weight. If you could put signifigantly stiffer torsion bars in a Beetle,it would ride like a truck.
Indy and F1 cars went to rocker arm suspension because of improved aerodynamics in the early '70s.Then swithched to pull rods in the early '80's.Then push rods in the mid '80s.Aside from the increased aerodyamic loads,the wheel rates stayed the same.If everything else stays the same,there is no handling improvement.Speeds increased due to increased aerodynamic downforce,better tires,and increased HP.
Dirt bikes went to Monoshock rear suspension to get more suspension travel without running larger,heavier,shocks. Longer suspension travel allows them to use softer wheel rates,which improves the performance by keeping the tires on the ground longer.The actual spring rates are much higher.Leaf springs were used on the front suspension of some bikes before the War.Low cost and ease of manufacture made this a good choice at the time.

The transverse leaf spring is a design element of a prewar Ford Hotrod/Streetrod/Ratrod/whateveryouwanttocallit.
And the Model T rear spring,with it's huge arch,is the most distinctive.
Using a T spring on the back unifies the design,front to rear.
If the builder was interested in absolute performance,he would have made different choices.

Since it's obviouly not stock,I think the light weight minimalist design and traditional design feartures make it a Hotrod.

If you don't like it,don't build one.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>also some springs will actually release more energy than is applied to them. [/b][/quote]
Where does this extra energy come from?
From you High School Physics class you may remember
the Law of Conservation of Energy;which says this is not true.
"Energy can not be created or destroyed,only transformed."
If someone has some Magic Springs that will release more energy than is applied,that would be the key to a perpetual motion machine. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img]
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Old January 12th, 2004, 12:43 PM   #85
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the talk about an alternative to the ford grillshell. how about a french renault style like this?
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Old January 12th, 2004, 02:53 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unkl Ian@Jan 12 2004, 01:27 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>bzzzzzzzz-wrong
not all springs (or methods of springing) are created equal. besides "stiffness" there is "rate". also some springs will actually release more energy than is applied to them. also different methods of suspending a chassis on it's wheels contribute to the handling characteristics of the vehicle.
Bullshit.

If you don't like it,don't build one.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>also some springs will actually release more energy than is applied to them. [/b][/quote]
Where does this extra energy come from?
From you High School Physics class you may remember
the Law of Conservation of Energy;which says this is not true.
"Energy can not be created or destroyed,only transformed."
If someone has some Magic Springs that will release more energy than is applied,that would be the key to a perpetual motion machine. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img] [/b][/quote]
hey unk, not sure where you started going with your argument but you did a great job of explaining why all springs and suspension designs are not created equal [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img] :P

i didn't say i didn't like it. i think it looks cool as hell. i was just trying to caution any jetsters out there about scratch building a suspension based on looks alone.

and yes, there is a law of physics pertaining to a phenomonon of some springs to release more energy than is applied to them and as a matter of fact has been the basis of many attempts to build a perpetual motion machine. (none were ever succesful)

how come you had to go all pissy on me ? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img]
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Old January 12th, 2004, 03:38 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by vwfanatic+Jan 12 2004, 12:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vwfanatic @ Jan 12 2004, 12:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-gowjobs@Jan 12 2004, 10:22 AM
Like I said, Kit Car Magazine used to list a VX-23 kit under Total Performances product line that was quite a bit like Walt's.
this bothered me, so i just got off the phone with TP and they assure me that they have NEVER marketed a VW t-bucket kit or any other VW based kit. They knew of Andy Brizio's kit but They have never done such a kit. I'd love to see that ad, maybe it was a company with a similar name. Can you see if you can find the ad.....i'm really curious. [/b][/quote]
It was not Total Performance it was Speedway Motors that had the VT 23 kit.
Speedway bought the kit from Fuller.Fuller was the Grandfather of the Volks-Rod. Andy Brizio Copied Fullers Kit with a few changes.

The only thing different between a V-Rod and a Front engine T bucket, body wise, is the longer bed to cover the motor and the addition of the hood. the bed can be easily made by sectioning two 20" beds together. The hood can either be fabed from scratch or you can even use a stock repo. Model T hood.
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Old January 12th, 2004, 03:47 PM   #88
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hey walt, i can remember seeing an article on a vw based t-bucket back in the 70s or 80s but it seems to me it was a metal bodied one-off ? ring any bells? could it have been about brizio ?
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Old January 12th, 2004, 05:25 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by lilbill@Jan 12 2004, 04:47 PM
hey walt, i can remember seeing an article on a vw based t-bucket back in the 70s or 80s but it seems to me it was a metal bodied one-off ? ring any bells? could it have been about brizio ?
There have been a few hand built one off V-rods built but I don't know of any with a steel body. Brizio almost always worked with glass bodies. That's where he came up with the (Andys Instant T) Title.

I've been collecting old Rod & Custom Magazines from the 60's and 70's and there were a few really cool one off V-Rods featured but all were Glass cars.
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Old January 12th, 2004, 06:22 PM   #90
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i'm pretty sure this one was steel. i remember it as fenderless and bronze in color. it was also the cover car but i'll be damned if i can remember exactly when/where i saw it but i know i was pretty young and custom vw's were still rare so it was probably late 60s-early 70s.
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Old January 12th, 2004, 06:31 PM   #91
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Maybe it was a real T bucket modified with VW setup?
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Old January 12th, 2004, 06:44 PM   #92
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>there is a law of physics pertaining to a phenomonon of some springs to release more energy than is applied to them[/b][/quote]

What is the proper name of this phenomonon ?
This must be documemted somewhere. I would like to read more about it.


There is no mention of this in any of my Engineering and Design texts,
or any of my books on chassis and suspension,including:
Tune to Win,
Prepare to Win,
Engineer to Win,all by Carrol Smith.
Racecar Engineering and Mechanics,by Paul Van Valkenburg.
Chassis Engineering,by Herb Adams.
How to Make Your Car Handle,by Fred Phun.
Advanced Racecar Suspension Development,
and several other titles by Steve Smith.
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Old January 12th, 2004, 07:14 PM   #93
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you didnt read: spool it up: the more you bounce by tigger?
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Old January 12th, 2004, 07:59 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unkl Ian@Jan 12 2004, 07:44 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>there is a law of physics pertaining to a phenomonon of some springs to release more energy than is applied to them
What is the proper name of this phenomonon ?
This must be documemted somewhere. I would like to read more about it.


There is no mention of this in any of my Engineering and Design texts,
or any of my books on chassis and suspension,including:
Tune to Win,
Prepare to Win,
Engineer to Win,all by Carrol Smith.
Racecar Engineering and Mechanics,by Paul Van Valkenburg.
Chassis Engineering,by Herb Adams.
How to Make Your Car Handle,by Fred Phun.
Advanced Racecar Suspension Development,
and several other titles by Steve Smith. [/b][/quote]
i don't know the exact name but it deals with overunity. years ago i was involved with a fabrication company that got a contract to build a spring driven overunity machine. one of the engineers tried to explain the theory to me but it sounded greek. i do remember though that it was all based on this
more energy out than in thing that is peculiar to some springs.

sounds like you have a good reference library there
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Old January 12th, 2004, 08:01 PM   #95
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>you didnt read: spool it up: the more you bounce by tigger? [/b][/quote]

Damn,I knew I forgot something.
Can I borrow your copy? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smilespin.gif[/img]
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Old January 13th, 2004, 03:44 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by walt+Jan 12 2004, 07:38 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(walt @ Jan 12 2004, 07:38 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
Originally posted by vwfanatic@Jan 12 2004, 12:48 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-gowjobs
Quote:
@Jan 12 2004, 10:22 AM
Like I said, Kit Car Magazine used to list a VX-23 kit under Total Performances product line that was quite a bit like Walt's.

this bothered me, so i just got off the phone with TP and they assure me that they have NEVER marketed a VW t-bucket kit or any other VW based kit. They knew of Andy Brizio's kit but They have never done such a kit. I'd love to see that ad, maybe it was a company with a similar name. Can you see if you can find the ad.....i'm really curious.
It was not Total Performance it was Speedway Motors that had the VT 23 kit.
Speedway bought the kit from Fuller.Fuller was the Grandfather of the Volks-Rod. Andy Brizio Copied Fullers Kit with a few changes.

The only thing different between a V-Rod and a Front engine T bucket, body wise, is the longer bed to cover the motor and the addition of the hood. the bed can be easily made by sectioning two 20" beds together. The hood can either be fabed from scratch or you can even use a stock repo. Model T hood. [/b][/quote]
walt - thanx for clearing that up. So speedway wont make any of those kits. has anyone tried to get them to part with the plans..or rights or anything related to the kit.....probably just better building it from scratch.......hmmmmm....wonder what jimw is doing this weekend. :rolleyes:
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Old January 13th, 2004, 04:45 AM   #97
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i wonder what a person could build using a berry mini-t tub ? there are still some of those floating around.
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Old January 13th, 2004, 07:18 AM   #98
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>i wonder what a person could build using a berry mini-t tub ? there are still some of those floating around.[/b][/quote]
With a Moon Tank in the back, a skull hood ornament on a "radiator shell" filled with cabinet knobs, and some Tiajuana tuck-n-roll, you could have a pretty nice ride. I'd go for some tall, skinny 16" WWW motorcycle tires up front on ford spokes with 15" spokes or solids in the rear with slightly wider and a whole lot taller tires in place.

Run Industrial green tin on the engine with black and red accents. Top a pair of Kadrons with vintage carb scoops painted red inside. The exhaust should be four straight slash-cut pipes of small diameter painted white.

Paint the car in light gray primer with red oxide flames, or a dark gray primer iron cross on the nose.

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Old January 13th, 2004, 07:57 AM   #99
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cut it out dave.....i'm drooling here, and i know where one of those bodies are sitting......no more projects, no more projects, no more projects [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yelling.gif[/img]
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Old January 13th, 2004, 08:00 AM   #100
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Oh yeah,

My apologies about the false alarm, but my brain still tells me that Kit Car listed the VX-23/VT-23 in with Total's stuff rather than Speedway's. Problem with my head is that there was a lot of LSD flowin through it in the early nineties...

"Insane in da' membrane..."
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