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Old May 15th, 2011, 01:10 PM   #1
carcentric
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Default Proportions okay?

In my avatar, Moe has a "generic" cab roof. Now that I have the '50 Ford F-3 cab here, I've taken measurements and done an "as close to scale as I can" mockup:


The color code is as follows:
  • brown = Morris Minor hood and front fenders (with fender tails grafted onto the doors)
  • yellow = Ford F-3 cab and doors with bottom 6.5" cut off
  • light blue = cowl transition and flatbed skirting (20g steel sheet, hand formed)
  • light gray = aluminum 4'x6' utility trailer frame
  • white = VW bug pan and rear fenders

I'm pretty happy with the proportions except:
1. the door handle now looks too low, and
2. if I use VW rear fenders, I think it might look better to use the tails of a second pair to make matching front fender tails for the doors (rather than cutting up the Minor doors to graft Minor tails onto the Ford doors).

Anybody have any suggestions for those or other things that don't look quite right?
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Last edited by carcentric; May 15th, 2011 at 01:12 PM.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 04:28 PM   #2
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Easy door handle solution, go shaved and use a solenoid to open from outside.

I am not familiar with all of the dimensions, but it seems the Ford cab will be hard to transition to the small Morris front end?
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Old May 15th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

So the door handle does look too low . . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 View Post
. . . it seems the Ford cab will be hard to transition to the small Morris front end?
The Ford is 5" wider at the cowl than the Minor, but I'll need to narrow the cab about that much anyhow to fit the bug pan. I won't know until I try it if there are compound curves or something I can't foresee.
then some more
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Old May 15th, 2011, 06:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

I like it.With the way you have it laid out, the cab looks channeled. The 'fade away' fenders into the cab look good, but watch out when you open the doors, which I'm guessing that you already know. Looks like a fun project.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 06:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

The front fenders look a lot heavier than the rears.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 06:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

What Unk said, and I also think the cab is just a little too tall from the windows -> up. Are you gonna chop it at all?
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Old May 15th, 2011, 08:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Transporter
. . .The 'fade away' fenders into the cab look good, but watch out when you open the doors . . . .
The doors aren't installed yet (came without hinge bolts) so I can't tell, but if there'd be interference, the doors could be suicide hinged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian
The front fenders look a lot heavier than the rears.
Say more, please. What makes them "heavier" - the difference in fender tail shape? Does the Minor rear fender in my avatar look better than the VW rear fender?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cdscowboy
What Unk said, and I also think the cab is just a little too tall from the windows -> up. Are you gonna chop it at all?
I was hoping to avoid a roof chop, but do you mean the upper cab looks too tall to be COOL, or too tall to be REAL? I'm okay with a stock '50s look, but don't want a Munster coach (artificially tall) look.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 02:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carcentric View Post

Say more, please. What makes them "heavier" - the difference in fender tail shape? Does the Minor rear fender in my avatar look better than the VW rear fender?


Ther is just far more front fender than rear. The front is long, thick and continues into the door. I think the rear fender needs to have more off of the rear, but I don't have na answer for that. The rear VW fender just sort of visually wraps the wheel.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 07:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeidelbergJohn4.0 View Post
. . . I think the rear fender needs to have more off of the rear, but I don't have na answer for that. The rear VW fender just sort of visually wraps the wheel.
Thanks. I did a version with the Minor rear fender rather than the VW one (see 1st attachment below), and I do see two differences:
- the VW fender trailing surface is flatter than the Morris, and
- the VW fender is cut away more in the mudflap area.
The combination of those two differences makes the Minor rear fender look thicker. And I guess it matches the front better, too.
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File Type: jpg moe-mockup-small2.jpg (26.1 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg moe-mockup-small.jpg (26.2 KB, 4 views)
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Old May 16th, 2011, 09:49 AM   #10
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

I think I like it Doc!
IMHO it would be easier to look at if it was all the same color
IMHO the doors with the fender pieces grafted on are goan to be a bitch to make open and close (good point V8T) unless yu suacide (sic)
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Old May 16th, 2011, 11:28 AM   #11
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

minor truck.JPG

Can you move the cab back a little? I think by moving the cab back a little would take a little weight off the front proportions and help a little with the doors and front fenders.

If you want to stick to full size glass, I'd avoid chopping it.
But if you lower it about a foot, that alone will take some of the height out of the cab.

Oh, I'd suggest some 18ga rather than 20ga for the bed. 20ga yikes. Pop can stuff.

Keep it up! Think you have a really cool idea here. Mark
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Old May 16th, 2011, 03:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markh View Post
Can you move the cab back a little? I think by moving the cab back a little would take a little weight off the front proportions and help a little with the doors and front fenders.
No, but I can move the front axle forward 8" () and make a longer cowl transition piece . . . . I'll have to lift the Minor hood into position to see how that would flow when viewed from above. Here's a F-3 flatbed for easy comparison of the proportions - note how long the deck is relative to the cab/frontend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by markh View Post
If you want to stick to full size glass, I'd avoid chopping it. But if you lower it about a foot, that alone will take some of the height out of the cab.
It needs new glass, and I'm pretty sure I can do a roof chop, but I want to avoid chopping the door tops/windwings - this plan is already at the far edge of my capability without that extra detail. When finished, btw, the top of the cab should be about the same height as a stock bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markh View Post
Oh, I'd suggest some 18ga rather than 20ga for the bed. 20ga yikes. Pop can stuff.
I already have enough 20g, but would have to buy a 4x8 sheet of 18g to do that ($$$). It's not really a bed, though, the sheet metal is just a skirt (totally non-structural) that blocks view of the bug engine and storage under the flatbed (former 4x6 utility trailer deck that, with the short Minor frontend, makes the flatbed look much longer).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rostibug
IMHO it would be easier to look at if it was all the same color . . . .
The actual color scheme is in this attachment (wimbledon white over buckskin tan with a dark red separator stripe to match the wheels and seat covers) - the flatbed support frame will be unpainted aluminum. Also, I changed the shape of the fender tail in this one to make it flatter like a VW rear fender's trailing surface.
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File Type: jpg moe-mockup-small-tanwhite.jpg (25.3 KB, 1 views)
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Last edited by carcentric; May 16th, 2011 at 03:53 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 04:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

If you want to see an example of rear fenders overpowered by the front, check out a 40 Willy's pick up. We're restoring one at the shop and it looks like the rear end is going to pop off the ground. The rear fenders look like wide motorcycle fenders.
If you're not sure about the rear fenders you've drawn, have you thought about cutting down a set from a Ford PU of the same vintage as the cab? IMHO, beefing up the fender 'tail' like you did in the last drawing makes her look pretty sweet.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 07:46 AM   #14
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

If you are going to narrow the cab, it is also a good time to chop the top, that way you only need one piece to make the roof longer. Since the old Ford cabs have a small rear window, I would suggest to keep the rear window full width and height, even after narrowing and potentially chopping.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 07:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

I'd be interested to see it stretched out 8" in the front! That just might do it. Like the look of the heavier rear fenders.

When I stretched out the cowl on the '37, I used the front edge of the '37 cowl and filled. Worked well. You'll just need to check the width.



And the cowl filled in:


I had to narrow the '37 hood to fit due to the flare. It got way more complicated but it's what I had so I made what I had work.

Anticipate that as you build, the design may change as planned. It's only when you start cutting and welding will you find what works. Go for it!
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Old May 17th, 2011, 09:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

My son helped me roll the cab over last night and surprise, surprise - look how much wider the back of the cab is than the cowl (that's NOT perspective in the attachment, it's really that trapezoidal)!


I thought I'd simply take a 5" swath out of the middle to narrow it, but I'm obviously going to need to remove a pie-shaped center section to bring the sides somewhat parallel (to more or less follow the VW pan perimeter). This ain't a kit car!
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Old May 17th, 2011, 09:33 AM   #17
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carcentric View Post
The actual color scheme is in this attachment (wimbledon white over buckskin tan with a dark red separator stripe to match the wheels and seat covers) - the flatbed support frame will be unpainted aluminum. Also, I changed the shape of the fender tail in this one to make it flatter like a VW rear fender's trailing surface.
I REWALLY like this!!!
The way you did the tailgate " / " not perfectly vertical is PERFECT
Somehow that detail really jumps out at me! I like it
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Old May 17th, 2011, 09:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

BTW do you remember the banjo steering wheel proposals you drew up???
I built one but it came out rilly rilly rough I do not want to post photos of it.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 10:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Transporter View Post
If you want to see an example of rear fenders overpowered by the front, check out a 40 Willy's pick up. . . . The rear fenders look like wide motorcycle fenders.
. . . have you thought about cutting down a set from a Ford PU of the same vintage as the cab? . . .
If the flatbed was wider (extended out over the tires), I might go with trailer fenders in the rear, but since the rear fenders will extend out from under the flatbed, I'm going with some sort of teardrop profiled rear fenders.

To my eye, the Ford fenders of the early '50s were too boxy; besides, I have Minor fenders and VW fenders, but no Ford fenders . . . .
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Old May 17th, 2011, 10:51 AM   #20
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markh View Post
I'd be interested to see it stretched out 8" in the front! That just might do it. . . .
That takes away all the cuteness of the Minor snub-nose - it's like grafting a collie nose on a bulldog.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 09:03 AM   #21
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Looking at the pie cut you need to take out to get that cab to narrow in the rear...wow a little more work. Very possible though!

38Chevy brought up a good talking point. When you go to remove that pie cut from the floor, you'll also be thinking about doing a section out of the back of the cab and down the center of the roof, but what you might want to do is start first by cutting out the entire back cab section (side to side). Cut to the "flat section" between the rolled corners and up and over the top curved section to the flat roof metal.. Set that section aside (which will have the stock back window); pie cut the floor and roof. Then once you have the rear sized to the width you need to match the bug pan; set it in place and re-fit the rear cab panel and trim side-to-side to fit the now narrowed cab.

You'll have two pie cuts. The floor and the roof. Bingo bango, just like that.

If you cut the cab in half and take out a center swath, when the two side halves come back together, the rear center seam will have a big "V" indent.

You probably already know all this, just thinking out loud how I might tackle narrowing the rear of the cab to fit. Doesn't mean I know what I'm saying as I'm notorious for doing things at least twice before I get it right.

Now, get to cuttin'!! Looking forward to watching your progress.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 11:35 AM   #22
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

This is cool. Some of my thoughts.

If you pie cut a section out the back it will V in. You'll have to make and additional cut to fix it. Will the doors be suicide? Not sure if you mentioned that. What about chopping it instead of removing some off of the bottom of the doors? I think taller doors would look cooler than a taller roof.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 11:37 AM   #23
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Ahh, a little more reading and I would've seen MarkH addressed the V issue.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 12:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markh View Post
. . . what you might want to do is start first by cutting out the entire back cab section (side to side). Cut to the "flat section" between the rolled corners and up and over the top curved section to the flat roof metal.. Set that section aside (which will have the stock back window); pie cut the floor and roof. Then once you have the rear sized to the width you need to match the bug pan; set it in place and re-fit the rear cab panel and trim side-to-side to fit the now narrowed cab.

You'll have two pie cuts. The floor and the roof. . . .
To address your last point first, I intend to cut off the bottom 6.5" of the cab (firewall, back wall, and sides, with doors), so there will be no floor to the cab - the VW pan will be the floor.

Now to the cut plan: I'd foreseen the "V" problem of folding two halves of a pie-cut roof together after my last post - the attachment shows what I'm planning now. In addition to what you mentioned (if I'm reading it right), there will need to be some pie cuts into the insides of the A pillars as well or they will not allow the cab sides to be pushed together at the rear. Black dashed lines are the first cuts (after the floor and bottom 6.5" is gone), and red dashed lines will be made to fit the gap after the sides are in their new positions.

Right track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8SuperBeetle
. . . Will the doors be suicide? Not sure if you mentioned that. What about chopping it instead of removing some off of the bottom of the doors? I think taller doors would look cooler than a taller roof.
Because of the difference between the hinge locations on the Ford and Minor doors, if I transfer the front fender tails onto the Ford doors, they will need to be suicide hinged.

I agree about the chop looking better, but I'm not up for re-doing the windwings, etc. required by a chop. I'll just have to tell everybody I prefer the "stock cab" look . . . .
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Proportions okay?

I see what you are saying on the relief needed at or around the A-pillars. Sounds like you are on the right track and considering most everything before cutting.

So you are sectioning the body and deleting the cab floor. Cool.

Rather than trying to guess at the width of the pie cuts on the roof, just cut it out on the wider line side and once it's all stitched back in place, lay the roof skin over and trim to fit. Makes sense.

So those A-pillars...I wonder how much they will flex or bend when you try and squeeze the back of the cab in to alignment? I see some stress. Could be nothing and you get away with a couple minor relief cuts and you're done.

Worst case, your A-pillars will not give because of the firewall, cowl, dash and the top curve of the roof just at the peak of the A-pillars in the curvy bit.

The flex or bend at the firewall, no biggy, should just flex.
The cowl. Seeing a relief cut with some filler metal as it will want to pull apart.
The dash, you might have to take a small section out on the inside outer edges both sides as it will want to collapse inward.
The top of the A-pillars, a couple relief cuts as the curvy bits will want to push up in to a peak.

Lots of stuff to keep you awake at night...Just whatever you do, make sure you can get the windshield back in! Ah hell, there's another thing!

I vote just cut what you plan and see what happens, bends, flexs, or breaks when you give it a good squeeze.
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