Cut-Weld-Drive Forums

Go Back   Cut-Weld-Drive Forums > The VolksRodders Forum > The Cutting Board

The Cutting Board Cut... Weld... DRIVE.


User Information
Your Avatar

Stuff to check out...

Cool stuff you NEED!

Forum Stats
Members: 17,638
Threads: 32,294
Posts: 545,651
Total Online: 443

Newest Member: shekplos9b

Latest Threads
- by Frank3
- by bugdust
- by Vrshack
- by bugwhat

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 13th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #76
Manx
Forum Member
 
Manx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 443
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

What a bummer.

Your car was one of my all time favorites. I am glad you are ok.
Manx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 03:45 PM   #77
Jogyver
Forum Member
 
Jogyver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SW of Chicago
Posts: 329
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markh View Post
Lonnie, I work nearby. I have your number so I'll give you a call on Friday to arrange a time to come by after work and take some photos. I'll post photos the photos for you.
Jogyver, other than the pass side front and close up of the beam, any specific photo requests? Mark
Mark , if you can post a photos of the driver side as well so we can see the geometry of the axle .
Lonnie , It's highly unlikely that your hair pins cause this failure and make your car quickly turn. . I was in a car that the driver side hair pin snapped . The front end shimmied and was a handfull . It really looks like your axle failed . Who was the manufacturer?
Jogyver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 05:36 PM   #78
perrib
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chandler, Az
Posts: 243
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Glad to hear he did not get seriously hurt. A broken leg is rough but trees don't move and he could off been hurt much worse.

Last edited by perrib; May 13th, 2010 at 05:38 PM.
perrib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 05:59 PM   #79
Halfastvw
Forum Member
 
Halfastvw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Belleview, Fl.
Posts: 122
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jogyver View Post
The tube axle is a combination tube with welded casted ends. did the failure occur on the casting , the tube side or at the weld?

Lonnie , Glad to hear you are alright.
Is it possible to take few close up photos of the fractured ends of the axle and post them. Colors of the casting, and possible casting defects could indicated the mechanism of your axle failure.
It came apart where the two dissimilar parts were joined, hard to tell much more.
I can see where an "I" beam would be meant to flex more but perhaps it was just a bit too much.
seems unlikely that this type of failure would happen in so few miles driven though.
I will keep my eye on this thread though as I feel its important for all of us 'heads to know about any safety issues
__________________
VOLXROD
67 Microbus

http://skidmarksgarage.com/
Halfastvw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 09:18 AM   #80
38Chevy454
Forum Member
 
38Chevy454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Tijeras, NM (Albuquerque)
Posts: 1,492
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Good to hear form you Lonnie. Any pics with close-up of the fracture surfaces will help determine the fracture mode. Determining root cause may be difficult, but start with photos of the bent and broken parts and fracture surfaces. I can then give some better opinions as to what the failure mode was.
__________________
High Quality USA-made bear claw latches and install kits CHEAP!

buy here directly: www.hotrodlatches.com
38Chevy454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 04:06 PM   #81
strokerbug
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: tennessee
Posts: 352
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

scratching Speedway of my list of potential parts sources..
glad to hear you came out ok man...
and please stick around...we need your enthusiasm
__________________
if i knew what i was doing, id share it with myself...
strokerbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 04:23 PM   #82
TJM
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ballwin(St. Louis)Missouri
Posts: 754
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducecoupe View Post
Gentlemen, my name is Lonnie Gilbertson, I built and own the Fire Bug. I appreciate and am humbled by the concerns expressed here. I am 65 years old and have been building cars all my life. (check me out at Lonnie's Place.com). I want to share the truth in hopes that I can prevent someone else bearing the grief that befell me. I took crap from my V8 buddies when I started to build my bug, however, I remembered the 1835 in my Dune Buggy I did in the 70's and knew the potential. Being an old Hot Rodder the early Ford straight axle kit by Speedway appealed to me, so I bought a 1975 standard Bug and was on my way. I will be happy to share the build with anyone that needs information. But for now I will skip to taking my 2332 cc 091 bus transaxxle Hot Rod Fire Bug to the Portland Roadster Show. At shows end to the amazement of several people I drove it home. I left the show floor all smiles by the time I got home I was all frowns. The car was un-drivable. To keep the car between the curbs was a major undertaking. In analyzing the problem, I discovered that sitting on the ground I had a normal 1/8" toe in, I could jack the car up at the perch bolts and it wold change to 1/2" toe out. At this point you might think bump steer, however, lifting at the perch bolds induces no suspension movement. The problem was axle flex. I could measure from the frame to the center of the king pin, jack it up to take the weifht off the tire and the king pin would move out 1/8" plus. This on a car that weighs little on the front compared to the V8 this setup should carry. With my experience it did not take long to figure out the steering set-up Speedway said to use would not work. I bought a cross steer rack and pinion and set it up in a traditional Hot Rod style. In an unconventional way I built my own steering arms and hooked everything at the top of the spindle. Thinking I might have created my own problem I bought Speedway dropped steering arms and moved the tie rod to the bottom of the spindle, like it would be stock. The net result was 1/4" tow change instead of 5/8" with the tie rod on top. I called Speedway and was told that I bought an early kit and all their early kits were junk, they have done a re-desigh to correct problems. I told them I had corrected the problems, however, I had trouble with axle flex, they told me to call the Manufacturer, it wasn't their problem. A call to the Manufacturer put me in touch with the owner he was very interested in helping me fix my problem. He suggested different alignment settings. Changing to his suggested settings the car semed to settle down. On Friday evening I test drove the car and had a friend do the same, although it was not perfect it seemed safe. Five O'clock Saturday morning I left my house by 5:10 am the Fire Bug was destroyed. A friend that was following said that it looked like the car dropped on the right front and left the road. From the drivers seat the Bug took a hard right, in trying to steer left nothing happened, I impacted a mail box, an oak tree, and a telephone pole. With cross steering the right front is the master and left the slave. If the right becomes disconnected you have no control of the left. It happened so fast I can't tell the order of events the only facts I know are:(1) it is a 5" drop cast iron axle,(2) The king pin boss on the right front is broken in half. (3) The axle is broken in half 2" inboard of the perch bolt. (4) The heavy damage to the right front wheel is on the inside as if it was turned hard right on impact. (5) I could not bring the car left once it took off right. (6) A friend that was following said it looked like the car dropped to the right before it left the road. I will never! Never! Ever run a cast axle again. On a personal note admit-tingly I am a Sunny Day Driver, however, I do not own Trailer Queens. I hope this helps someone. Thanks for letting me express myself. This is the first time I have ever posted anything to any site. I hope this will get read and not lost. Thank You,
Lonnie
Who did Speedway tell you the manufacturer of the parts was? I am building a tube chassed, V8 powered 1969 VW Squareback and got my suspension from Speedway.
TJM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 04:33 PM   #83
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,852
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

I'm curious how many people have to have their cars damaged and their lives threatened before Speedway is held accountable?

I'm normally whining about how no one takes personal responsiblity anymore, but about every 6-8 months it seems like there's another story exactly like this one relating to Speedway suspension parts. and everytime the person did NOTHING wrong but trust that Speedway had fixed their issues..

I'd almost be willing to bet there are enough victims to build a decent class action suit.. but then again I don't know much about the legal process..
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #84
ducecoupe
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: milwaukie oregon
Posts: 51
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

The axel came from magnum it was a 5" drop cast iron unit.. Lonnie
ducecoupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 10:14 PM   #85
markh
Forum Member
 
markh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 661
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Ok this is photo heavy. If you want to go to my photobucket to see others, there are about 20 or so over there.

Lonnie, it was a pleasure meeting you today and thank you for you for the time.

I must say, this rod was VERY well built. The Fire Bug IS/WAS a true work of art. A lot of thought and consideration went into the quality of work on this rod. Every nut and bolt. Nothing overseen. A very sad experience to see it all mangled and just sitting.

The axle boss outer piece. Lonnie noted that on post-accident inspection of this piece, there were sections of the metal that were darker in color versus the other surface area that looked freshly sheared like a twisted head of a bolt. The photo still shows the light and dark areas fairly well.

Inner axle boss



The cast iron I-Beam:

Cross section of fracture:

Cross section with a twist:

Outer beam fractured end. Looks like sand.:

Lonnie explained that in all of his years building hotrods, he has seen some damaged front beams. Beams that have twisted and bent in all directions..but never cracked like this.

Passenger side front wheel:


Driver side front wheel:

Driver front wheel well damage:




King pin Passenger side:




And last but not least, how Lonnie hopes to see it again:


My conclusion...(just mine)...the cast iron I-beam failed. Couldn't see anything else to blame in the mess of twisted metal.
markh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #86
tequilla
Forum Member
 
tequilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Layin' low........ sippin' slow
Posts: 2,259
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

My opinion.......shitty casting and a fatigue crack caused it all.... Based on 20 years of fatigue testing wheels........



EDIT: The dark areas show where the metal was rubbing and where the crack started.......
__________________
VW INC.

'67 Baja

'63 T-Bird

Devils Plaything

Share your cheese....... here kitty, kitty.......

Last edited by tequilla; May 14th, 2010 at 11:53 PM.
tequilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15th, 2010, 02:56 AM   #87
Timbo
Forum Member
 
Timbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seymour TN.
Posts: 2,091
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Ducecoupe, Sorry about your rod but I am glad that you are around to tell us about your experince and warn us about the crappy parts out there. It seems kind of common with speedway. Hope you hang around here awhile, a lot of great people here. Thanks Markh for taking your time for the pictures.
Tim
__________________
Its too bad that the people that know it all cant do it all.

Forget the plastic, Drive a classic.
Timbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15th, 2010, 05:48 AM   #88
JiI
Forum Member
 
JiI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mokena, IL Yep, that's me falling down a sand dune in Michigan...
Posts: 8,200
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tequilla View Post
My opinion.......shitty casting and a fatigue crack caused it all.... Based on 20 years of fatigue testing wheels........



EDIT: The dark areas show where the metal was rubbing and where the crack started.......
I'm going with bad cast and fatigue crack. With the grainy break point, it looks like it just popped off, not stretched or tore the metal.
Jeff
JiI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16th, 2010, 07:17 PM   #89
Unkl Ian
Trouble Maker and Bad Influence
 
Unkl Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: A distant galaxy;far,far,away.
Posts: 16,999
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Found this on RRR:

__________________

www.FlyingEyeballs.net

Unkl Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16th, 2010, 07:27 PM   #90
Unkl Ian
Trouble Maker and Bad Influence
 
Unkl Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: A distant galaxy;far,far,away.
Posts: 16,999
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JiI View Post
I'm going with bad cast and fatigue crack. With the grainy break point, it looks like it just popped off, not stretched or tore the metal.
Jeff

Cast Iron typically doesn't stretch very far before it snaps.
__________________

www.FlyingEyeballs.net

Unkl Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16th, 2010, 07:41 PM   #91
JiI
Forum Member
 
JiI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mokena, IL Yep, that's me falling down a sand dune in Michigan...
Posts: 8,200
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Cast Iron typically doesn't stretch very far before it snaps.
True. Question, what is the true definition of nodular iron? I've heard the term used for brake rotors to dropped axles etc... lots of opposing answers on the web. Any good answers?
Jeff
JiI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #92
Unkl Ian
Trouble Maker and Bad Influence
 
Unkl Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: A distant galaxy;far,far,away.
Posts: 16,999
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Try Matweb.com
__________________

www.FlyingEyeballs.net

Unkl Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16th, 2010, 08:34 PM   #93
JiI
Forum Member
 
JiI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mokena, IL Yep, that's me falling down a sand dune in Michigan...
Posts: 8,200
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Try Matweb.com
Wow! That is a cool site!
Jeff
JiI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2010, 06:11 AM   #94
38Chevy454
Forum Member
 
38Chevy454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Tijeras, NM (Albuquerque)
Posts: 1,492
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Kind of hard to see exactly, but my best guess is there could be a fatigue crack in the kingpin boss that initiated out of the cross-drilled hole. I really need to have the actual part to make a better judgement. If the kingpin boss broke, it would result in that wheel losing all control ability and therefore leading to loss of control and the accident.

The I-beam section of the axle failure appears to be pure ductile overload, it broke during the accident. The rest of the broken parts also appear to be post-kingpin accident damage and are not the root cause of the failure.

Cast iron parts are not as easy to see fatigue cracks in vs steel. It is easy to distinguish overload fracture. The likely root cause of the accident was the kingpin boss breaking, based on what I can see in the pics.
__________________
High Quality USA-made bear claw latches and install kits CHEAP!

buy here directly: www.hotrodlatches.com
38Chevy454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2010, 07:04 AM   #95
walt
Forum Member
 
walt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca.
Posts: 3,254
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 View Post
Kind of hard to see exactly, but my best guess is there could be a fatigue crack in the kingpin boss that initiated out of the cross-drilled hole. I really need to have the actual part to make a better judgement. If the kingpin boss broke, it would result in that wheel losing all control ability and therefore leading to loss of control and the accident.

The I-beam section of the axle failure appears to be pure ductile overload, it broke during the accident. The rest of the broken parts also appear to be post-kingpin accident damage and are not the root cause of the failure.

Cast iron parts are not as easy to see fatigue cracks in vs steel. It is easy to distinguish overload fracture. The likely root cause of the accident was the kingpin boss breaking, based on what I can see in the pics.

I'm with you Terry.

Lonnie.........Did you unbolt the tie rod and drag link???
__________________
Give me something to cut with, I'm going to build a Volksrod.

I'm bilingual.......I talk to men and women

My Volks-Rod
Rat Patrol Web Page
Rat Patrol photos
Rat Patrol Car Build Thread
Rat Patrol Timeline
Rat Patrol Videos
(RIGHT click and choose SAVE TARGET AS and download to your PC)
Movie1
Movie2
walt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2010, 07:15 AM   #96
ducecoupe
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: milwaukie oregon
Posts: 51
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

The tie rod was ripped out of the speedway steering arm, The drag link I had to unbolt from the steering arm that I built. One of the mounting bolts on the steering arm that I built was ripped out of the spindle. Lonnie
ducecoupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2010, 07:22 AM   #97
TJM
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ballwin(St. Louis)Missouri
Posts: 754
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Found this on RRR:

No disrespect to you, but show me where many parts, etc. are not MADE IN CHINA! About 5 or 6 years ago, I toured the Harley Davidson plant in Milwaukee. To my suprise, while going down the line where engines were being assembled, I saw boxes upon boxes with the MADE IN JAPAN notification on them. I asked the tour guide what these parts were and he said fuel delivery system. SO MUCH FOR THE AMERICAN MADE HARLEY. So sad.

Take a look at GM for example. Where do you think the 350 c.i. engine block is made? You guessed it, MEXICO.
TJM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2010, 07:37 AM   #98
walt
Forum Member
 
walt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca.
Posts: 3,254
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markh View Post
Ok this is photo heavy. If you want to go to my photobucket to see others, there are about 20 or so over there.
.

Can you post a link to your photobucket?
__________________
Give me something to cut with, I'm going to build a Volksrod.

I'm bilingual.......I talk to men and women

My Volks-Rod
Rat Patrol Web Page
Rat Patrol photos
Rat Patrol Car Build Thread
Rat Patrol Timeline
Rat Patrol Videos
(RIGHT click and choose SAVE TARGET AS and download to your PC)
Movie1
Movie2
walt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2010, 07:51 AM   #99
purplemyth
moody witch
 
purplemyth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: central ga.
Posts: 12,168
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm108/marklh/
the direct link Walt~
__________________
1,2,.............. .
Like it, Click it, support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishguts
My attraction to volksrods is that these are bottom-feeders where things are still real ... people scraping together parts, doing their own work and often on a tight budget. Real hot rodding is still alive here.
purplemyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2010, 08:03 AM   #100
HeidelbergJohn4.0
Forum Member
 
HeidelbergJohn4.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
Posts: 7,275
Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJM View Post
No disrespect to you, but show me where many parts, etc. are not MADE IN CHINA! About 5 or 6 years ago, I toured the Harley Davidson plant in Milwaukee. To my suprise, while going down the line where engines were being assembled, I saw boxes upon boxes with the MADE IN JAPAN notification on them. I asked the tour guide what these parts were and he said fuel delivery system. SO MUCH FOR THE AMERICAN MADE HARLEY. So sad.

Take a look at GM for example. Where do you think the 350 c.i. engine block is made? You guessed it, MEXICO.
I believe they have been using Mikuni carbs and fuel injection for a while now.

Even with foreign sourced parts, it's ultimately up to the company putting their name on the product to ensure quality control. If you are sourcing junk, putting your name on that junk, it becomes your junk.

Ipods are made in China, but Apple insists on a certain level quality of product. I've seen and held the Ipod touch clones that AREN'T sold to apple. They look exactly the same, however it's immediately obvious something is rotten.

I've seen far more complaints and reports of failed or poorly engineered suspension parts from Speedway to even consider using the majority of them.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Last edited by HeidelbergJohn4.0; May 17th, 2010 at 08:37 AM.
HeidelbergJohn4.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
broken, broken axle, crash, dangerous, speedway

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ALL text, images, graphics and content herein are Copyright 2002 - 2013 Three Pugs Design - Cut Weld Drive Forums