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Old May 17th, 2010, 09:05 AM   #101
RichG
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

I'd take this part to someone with a really good microscope just out of curiosity. I don't know jack about casting iron or steel, but I do know that poor alloying in aluminum casting can cause porosity if the metal isn't degassed properly. Degassing in an aluminum smelter removes the final trace gases from the fluxing process. I've seen cross sections of aluminum billet logs where they had dark spots like this, it was oil contamination that had penetrated the metal.

Like I said, I don't know if that could happen with cast iron or steel, just puttin' it out there. I worked in an aluminum smelter in the casting foundry for a few years, we got to see all kinds of metal quality issues when customer reps came in to bitch at us.


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Old May 17th, 2010, 09:15 AM   #102
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichG View Post
... we got to see all kinds of metal quality issues when customer reps came in to bitch at us.

Those were the customers that actually gave a Shit about what they sold.
If your name is on it, it is up to you to make sure it is decent.

Or just push it out the door and blame the customer for improper installation.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 10:00 AM   #103
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

I hear ya Unk. I was pushing about 240-300 thousand lbs of the stuff out the door every 12 hours shift, and that was just in my casting pit... we didn't take quality issues lightly, even us metal jockeys had a good understanding of process control.

These Chinese castings seem to have a fairly high rate of failure when subjected to any kind of load...
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Old May 17th, 2010, 10:26 AM   #104
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

With the way the metal snapped, does anyone have any thoughts on metal impurities? I know welds can snap if not prepped/ cleaned properly and when I was doing casting, if you stop a pour, even for a few seconds, you can get fissures, pockets or hairline separations. I'm no expert but I have experienced different "learning accidents" with casting.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 10:27 AM   #105
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeidelbergJohn4.0 View Post
I believe they have been using Mikuni carbs and fuel injection for a while now.

Even with foreign sourced parts, it's ultimately up to the company putting their name on the product to ensure quality control. If you are sourcing junk, putting your name on that junk, it becomes your junk.

Ipods are made in China, but Apple insists on a certain level quality of product. I've seen and held the Ipod touch clones that AREN'T sold to apple. They look exactly the same, however it's immediately obvious something is rotten.

I've seen far more complaints and reports of failed or poorly engineered suspension parts from Speedway to even consider using the majority of them.
But what is the answer? I would definitely like to buy something, 100% USA made but corporate America seems to want to outsource everything overseas and still charge us the BIG price. Do you agree?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #106
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

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But what is the answer? I would definitely like to buy something, 100% USA made but corporate America seems to want to outsource everything overseas and still charge us the BIG price. Do you agree?
Even going to a custom builder, there's no guarantee. Well, you could buy a Hyundai.

IIRC the Sonata is 100% American sourced and assembled. IIRC the Accord and Camry are as well


virtually nothing is 100% made in this country any longer.


sorry to take it off topic a little. Best option IMHO is source an original drop axle from some American iron and build it yourself. Can't be much worse than this incident.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 10:54 AM   #107
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeidelbergJohn4.0 View Post
Even going to a custom builder, there's no guarantee. Well, you could buy a Hyundai.

IIRC the Sonata is 100% American sourced and assembled. IIRC the Accord and Camry are as well


virtually nothing is 100% made in this country any longer. welcome to a world economy and free market capitalism at it's finest..

Yeah, I hear ya. My sbc 350 GM crate motor for my Squareback project has a casting on the block "MEXICO".
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:08 AM   #108
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

The big automotive manufacturers have QC programs in place,
so that a part is what it is supposed to be. Including the alloy
and heat treating.Doesn't matter to them where it is made,
as long at it meets their specifications. They do a LOT of durability
testing, and know what hits the fan when "substandard" parts sneak through.

Unfortunately, many automotive aftermarket companies
do not go to these lengths. Long term testing to them
may be 500 highway miles, certainly not 100,000 .
If they do specify the Aluminum alloy or grade of Cast Iron,
they trust the making the parts to do it right. It would be
interesting to know how many of them actually have
full time mechanical engineers on staff.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:09 AM   #109
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

When was the last time Detroit actually used Cast Iron in a load bearing suspension component ?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:13 AM   #110
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Cast Aluminum or Cast Iron parts typically don't bend too far before they break.

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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:16 AM   #111
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.





Notice how the edges of the hole are not significantly deformed,
the material snaps cleanly when overloaded.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #112
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Cast iron or cast aluminum is typically not used for suspension components exactly for the reasons listed - it does not have the ductility. It will break rather than bend. Forged steel or aluminum is typically used for OE suspension parts as they have the ductility which provides a measure of safety.

On the subject failed axle, I really do not see any evidence of casting problems. No obvious porsity, cold shuts or segregation.

The OE's do use nodular cast iron when they want a more ductile part. Most crankshafts that are not forged are made from nodular cast iron. In brief, regular grey cast iron is called that because it has a grey appearance when it fractures. It has graphite (esentially pure Carbon) flakes. It fractures along these flakes and gives the dark grey appearance. Nodular cast iron has small round spheres of Carbon surrounded by almost pure iron, in cross section kind of like a bullseye. The pure iron gives the ductility and also keeps the Carbon form being such a weak link. Nodular cast iron is still not as good as forged or wrought steel, but a whole lot better than grey cast iron.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 02:08 PM   #113
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

I suppose if someone wanted to they could have part of that axle sent in for a spectroanalysis, although I don't know the particulars for using it with iron, I know that it can detect alloying minerals in a casting. We used it to determine percentage of iron in aluminum reduction cells. You'd definitely know if the casting material was in question.

Another thing I'm not familiar with (and yeah, it's a hell of a long list) is if iron or steel castings have to be subjected to homogenizing, or if that would make a difference in durability?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 05:45 PM   #114
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducecoupe View Post
The axle came from Magnum it was a 5" drop cast iron unit.. Lonnie
From the page 3 of the online Magnum catalog:
http://www.magnumaxle.net/MagnumAxelCatalogWeb.pdf

" í28-í48 I-Beam Axles
Magnum's 4" & 5" dropped I-Beam axles feature a one
piece design of ductile iron and will accept '37-'48 Ford or
Magnum spindles. Four widths are available to fit '28-'48
Fords. Specify 2" or 2 1/4" axle boss when ordering. I-Beam
Axles are available plain or chrome. Note that recessed
areas of chromed axles are not polished"

On the same page:

"5 Reasons Why Magnum Axles Are Best
1. Tube axle ends are forged 1018 steel, not cast.
2. Tubes are precision welded to the forged ends
with deep penetration.
3. Available in a wider range of sizes than anyone.
Custom made to your specifications, if required.
4. Jig welded to extremely accurate dimensions.
5. These beautiful axles are virtually indestructible."

"Magnum Tube
Axles feature forged
steel ends...not cast.
These forgings are
then welded to the center
tube section which
provides you with the
strongest tube axle
available."

"Forged of 1018
steel, our tube axle
ends are the toughest
available"

"For the ultimate
in appearance
and durability,
donít settle for
anything less
than a genuine
Magnum Axle."

There is no mention of what process is used
in the manufacture of there I-beam axles.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #115
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

RichG .. post that picture as an attachement so we can zoom in on it.
Mr. Roadster axles are made in China
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Old May 17th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #116
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

okay.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #117
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

FIRST OFF I'm very glad you where not seriously injured Lonnie , and i'm very sorry about you're loss at the same time , ( beautiful car ) . I raced dirt track for 17 years solid and speedway motors was a great resource for cheap performance parts ( but reliablity was lost ) Speedy Bill needs a wake up call !!! Engine parts failing is one thing but suspension parts !!!! come on . We quit using speedway parts after about a year or so of thier bullet cams wiping out lobes ( after proper break in procedure ) and pistons that would break ring lands and skirts ,among other things . I really feel for you and all the time and effort put into your build and I really do hope that the insurance company follows through with what happened and who is at fault GODSPEED
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Old May 18th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #118
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Rich, Just stick a magnet on the piece . That will tell you is its steel or aluminum. Looks like cast steel .
The bottom of the kingpin bore does look like there are some linear crack like indications. The higher stress concentrator would be at the base area of the axle to kingpin location. It's difficult to see in the photo .. there also looks like the metal has been marred at the top and bottom. It would be nice to perform a Dye penetrant test on that part to see really what's there. The opposite kingpin area most likely would of failed also. (HIC) Hydrogen induced cracking could be the contributor to this failure.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 10:07 AM   #119
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Jogyver, I just reposted the pic that was in the thread earlier, I'm not connected personally to this car... I am just like everyone else here, curious as to what initially caused the failure of the axle (besides the obvious issue of it being a cast rather than forged part)
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Old May 20th, 2010, 04:22 AM   #120
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Samba fresh
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie....php?id=968700
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Old May 20th, 2010, 09:21 AM   #121
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

"This is an original So Cal beam from Martin, before he sold to Speedway."

It may be one of the very, very few good ones...
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Old May 20th, 2010, 10:26 AM   #122
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

and he joined here just so he could sell it to us!
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Old May 20th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #123
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

You should find a Navy Machinist, who was trained in some Metalurgy.
My Father would be able to look at this and tell you if it was the metal or not.
However he is not computer freindly for resons I can't figure out. I would get a lawyer and sue those bastards for the value of the car and your injuies, stress.... A lawyer can find you a good Metal expert and this might save someones life in the future if Speedway was held accountable.

Sue them and make sure all Magazine are notified as to the lawsuit by Speedway.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 05:17 PM   #124
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

With over 35 years experience as a Tool & diemaker, Machinist, Inspector and doing destructive and non-destructive testing with a very good grasp on metalurgy, what i'm seeing is porosity in the casting which would make it weaker and likely to fail. Root cause?, could have been a cold, or bad pour, bad mix, but I would put my $ on a cold or bad pour and no x-ray testing of finished product.
Your mileage may vary.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 06:32 PM   #125
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Default Re: Loss of a great car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jogyver View Post
The bottom of the kingpin bore does look like there are some linear crack like indications. The higher stress concentrator would be at the base area of the axle to kingpin location. It's difficult to see in the photo .. there also looks like the metal has been marred at the top and bottom. It would be nice to perform a Dye penetrant test on that part to see really what's there. The opposite kingpin area most likely would of failed also. (HIC) Hydrogen induced cracking could be the contributor to this failure.
It's near impossible to tell from a photo, but the markings on the bored surface look more like gouges/scratches to me vs. actual linear indications or surface cracks. It would be nice to perform a penetrant test on the marred ends to see what's really there, but unfortunately the surrounding rough surfaces there would cause too much bleed out once the developer was applied, most likely covering the indications in question (could smooth it out, but chance removing the indication). You may be able get by with a water soluble Group V flourescent penentrant test, but flushing the rough areas out enough might not leave enough dye in the areas really in question.

Getting an X-ray / radiograph would be the ideal test for this, definitely better for detecting porosity throughout the part and a decent chance at detecting cracks depending on the direction of the beam.
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