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Old March 17th, 2006, 10:19 AM   #1
bci13
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I looked for pics but couldn't find any. Anyone out there driving with no tins fenderless? I am looking for real world experience. I don't think I will ever drive it for more than an hour or two at a time. What do you think? I think it would look nice with exposed heads.

Oh, I know they are there to circulate air before you tear into me. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AssScratch.gif[/img]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Sawzallsmiley.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/welderface.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif[/img]
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Old March 17th, 2006, 10:30 AM   #2
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where will you mount the alternator/generator. Most people would think the bug motor is cool enough as it's different from the modern motors to begin with. I'd just leave the shroud on
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Old March 17th, 2006, 10:33 AM   #3
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Maybe I haven't looked close enough. I just want to take the tins off (as much as I can) from around the heads. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif[/img]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Sawzallsmiley.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/welderface.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif[/img]
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Old March 17th, 2006, 10:51 AM   #4
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had a guy come in here a couple years ago with no cyc. tinon a fiberglass buggy. ran fine,it was a small motor , but he had no problem.not with the car any way.......he [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/FreakinSmiley.gif[/img] you know
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Old March 17th, 2006, 11:07 AM   #5
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had the baja with no lowers on it, it ran too hot, he put the super coolers on the under sides, it still ran hot, now has a bilge pump fan on it, runs better.

the dunebuggies have more air flow due to being so open, but sitting still in traffic they'll heat up, so I'd think it just depends on how you'll be driving, lots of cruising to maintain air flow or stop and go of a somewhat daily driver.
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Old March 17th, 2006, 01:55 PM   #6
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It was designed by engineers, to run cooler with everything on it.

They changed the tins that go under the heads, to make it run cooler.

Seems to me it should run cooler, with all the tin on it.

I won't run mine without it!

My 2 cents
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Old March 17th, 2006, 02:04 PM   #7
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the engineers designed them 6" to tall , 10" to short, way to much sheet metal and with 36hp. that didn't stop some of these guys. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Sawzallsmiley.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/welderface.gif[/img] and get [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif[/img]
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Old March 17th, 2006, 02:31 PM   #8
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From Genberg.com...

first some info in here around the oil cooler stuff...

"We do not sell remote mount oil coolers or any aftermarket fan housings. Not even the dog house Taiwan copies, as they do not provide the proper cooling or thermostat control locations that are critical to engine life. Why not, after all there is a lot of money to be made in this market? Because our commitment is to you, and not just how much money we can make. We do not want you to think we endorse such changes, think that they are better or that you had to have it.
Because of all the extremely inaccurate articles and rumors, we have made thousands of temperature tests since 1971 and will continue to do so. These tests were quite eye opening and verified that the stock VW parts created the best cooling unless you were willing to spend far more for the cooling changes than the complete car was worth.

Our temperature tests showed that the VW was so well engineered that practically every change we made to the cooling system from stock ran much hotter. When we tested air flow inside the fan housing and cylinder shrouds, every change from stock reduced air flow to one location or another, causing higher temperatures at one location or another.

Removing the oil cooler inside of the fan housing (through 1970) raised the temperature at the 3/4 head as much as 50 degrees F above normal. That's right, it went up by 50 degrees, not down like the people selling outside coolers would like you to believe. In fact, upon looking at some of the ads for outside coolers they stated that the 3/4 head changed by 50 degrees, and never stated that it would cool better than stock. Air pressure (flow) was drastically reduced at the head and increased at the lower part of the 3/4 cylinders.

Even 1 and 2 temperature went up due to the lower restriction on 3 and 4. Further investigating inside the fan housing revealed that VW's air vortexes and directional vanes put the air in the exact locations needed at the correct velocity and that the cooler must be in place to direct the air over the cooler and along the top of the fan housing. This straightens it out to go down straight through the head and cylinder fins with the highest efficiency.

We even discovered that the thermostat shutters are directional devices to direct air to the proper locations through warm up and also when they are opened all the way to direct air to the most critical areas.

Speaking of thermostats, removing the shutters and the thermostat increases engine wear 15% to 17% and often causes cracked heads even in southern California. Naturally, the percentage is much higher in colder areas. The internal engine parts cannot heat up and expand together at the proper rate when the thermostat is removed.

The inside grows from heat and the outside is being cooled far too much and is kept small. This means valves, guides, piston and cylinders, pins and rod bearings are all being subjected to stress and abnormal wear without the thermostat and shutters. After all, you don't take the thermostat out of your new water cooled car do you?

The dog house oil cooler and bigger fan (100 CFM more air that will not fit most aftermarket fan housings) set-up introduced in 1971 proved superior in all tests by as much as 70 degrees F over aftermarket coolers or fan housings. It is even superior to the one that is made and imported from VW of Brazil that uses the smaller early steel oil cooler rather than the bigger aluminum cooler we normally see in the USA.

This is partly because the fan that fits the genuine VW dog housings is wider and supplies far more air. Every test was better by at least 30 degrees F. And the next best was the pre 1971 fan housing stock cooling set-up.

One interesting note was that when I installed the 1971 system in my 1967 VW, I had to add more air intake. The convertible louvered trunk lid was required to get full cooling benefit and take advantage of the higher CFM fan. Yes, I realize that these lids are hard to find and suggest propping the trunk lid open a couple inches at the bottom if you do not have the convertible lid.

Again, my suggestion is that you solve the overheating problem of the engine, which is causing the oil to overheat. After all, if your Chevy was overheating itís unlikely that you would put an extra radiator on its roof, so why put a bandage on your elbow for the sore on your knee to fix your VW? The only thing that can cause overheated oil is an overheated head. Even if you cool the oil, the head temperature is still running far beyond normal, as you never fixed the source of the overheating problem. I have never experienced any overheating of any engine with the correct CR, carburetion, timing, distributor, and proper octane fuel regardless of HP output even 200 HP daily driven.

If you absolutely must hang a cooler on your car, ADD IT to a full flow system (remember, full flow comes directly from the pump) and maintain the original stock oil cooler. Do not substitute it for the original.

The more we tested, the more apparent it became that the heads are the source of the heat. We found the CR and volumetric efficiency of the engine is a large factor. When heads, CR, carburetion, exhaust and cam are all correctly matched to the engine so the volume of fuel (proper octane) and air is what the engine wants, the engine runs cooler and lasts longer. For long life, we recommend conservative compression ratios, especially because pump gasoline quality has been going down, down, down from the good old days.

Remember, in 1974 you could still get Chevron White pump gas that was rated at 103 octane and Union 76 purple gas that was around 104 octane and they had 3.0 grams of lead per gallon average. In those days we had street engines with 10.0:1 and even used power pulleys without cooling problems. For more about cooling order GB 801-COOLING, GB 801-CR, and GB 801-HEADS.

Note: I have had many people make adverse comments about my cooling and CR tests and recommendations. It is obvious these people do not daily drive an air cooled VW for over 100,000 miles of testing or have not considered that I do not make any money by recommending that you keep your stock cooling system that you likely already have or lowering your CR to match the octane of the fuel. I am committed to your engine running correctly and living as long as possible. "

and some more goodies...

"How To Know When Your Engine Is Hot. Ľ How To Know When Your Engine Is Hot? - Technical Information


Or should it be, how hot is hot? How hot is your oil? Over 230F? This can cause case studs to pull out, head and case sealing surfaces to warp, cases to be internally distorted, permanent case metal fatigue and engine bearings to wear prematurely.
Here's the answer! This slick little temperature sensor goes into the dipstick hole and hooks up to the oil light switch. It takes just a minute and can be done by anyone who can check the oil. Simply remove the dipstick and install the temperature sensor in its place. Install the wire ends and hook the wire to your oil pressure light switch. When the temperature reaches about 225F, your oil light flickers. Hotter temperature turns the light on steady. Low or no oil pressure still lights up your oil light in the normal manner. When the light flickers, slow down until it goes out. If the light continues to flicker, check your oil level. If problems continue, carb jets and timing should be checked and corrected.

Possibly, a larger main jet is needed. If you have all of the correct corresponding components, the CR in relationship to the gas octane is correct, and temperatures are still a problem, get GB 801-COOLING and GB 801-CR. We have spent years on R & D for the proper way to do this and do not have cooling problems with any properly built engine. "

hope this sheds some light ...

good luck!
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Old March 17th, 2006, 02:46 PM   #9
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now that's a good read....i sure didn't know that ....thanks
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Old March 17th, 2006, 02:56 PM   #10
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hal @ Mar 17 2006, 05:46 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
now that's a good read....i sure didn't know that ....thanks
[/b][/quote]

That was a good read!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Dancing.gif[/img]

Any day that you learn something, is a great day! I also learned some things! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clapping.gif[/img]

Thanks!!
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Old March 17th, 2006, 03:05 PM   #11
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If you put strong enough fans on ait and an alternator big enough you can blow enough air to keep it running.
It is common to remove the belt on a quarter mile run to get a few extra hp out of it.
You just gotta monitor the oil temp to keep below 250...?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bci13 @ Mar 17 2006, 01:19 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I looked for pics but couldn't find any. Anyone out there driving with no tins fenderless? I am looking for real world experience. I don't think I will ever drive it for more than an hour or two at a time. What do you think? I think it would look nice with exposed heads.

Oh, I know they are there to circulate air before you tear into me. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AssScratch.gif[/img]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Sawzallsmiley.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/welderface.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
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Old March 17th, 2006, 03:51 PM   #12
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Well... what it really boils down to is... running an air cooled motor without the ENGINEERED PARTS in place, is asking for trouble. PERIOD. now with that said,

What 'ze germans' designed into the cooling system on a bug motor is not necessarilly excessive air flow, but rather, precicely 'aimed' air, AND more importantly, correct VELOCITY in the flow of air. Heat transfers from the hot metal to the air passing by it at a very simple, fixed rate... basic physics. if the air flys by too fast, an inefficient heat transfer is occuring.. which means not enough heat is being carried away. They calculated ALL of this sort of stuff into the factory setup that came on your motor. I read the above word for word tech article in Gene Berg's parts catalog 20 years ago... and the first thing I did was to go find a full thermostat / flap setup in a junkyard , clean it up, calibrate it, and put it on my 2110.... that motor has over 100k miles and is still running today... and it has eaten 3 stock and 2 modified trannys, without a hickup yet:)

I can;t stress enough how FUCKING GREAT the info on his website is! EVERYONE should read, understand, and use it... it's not hype or madeup bullshit to try and make money or promote someone's new whatchamacallit... it's straight dope for guys like you and me.

GeneBerg,com

good luck guys!
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Old March 17th, 2006, 03:59 PM   #13
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Yes it's common for drag cars to run w/o a fan belt and shroud. The big difference is their motors are usually on for a couple minutes before being shut down again. But how long do motors are kept running the street...
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Old March 17th, 2006, 09:29 PM   #14
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I'm too drunk to read that right now, but thanks for the info Fonzy. You are an info board all by yourself.

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Sawzallsmiley.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/welderface.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/stoned.gif[/img]
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