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Old February 21st, 2007, 03:31 PM   #1
Eye-gouge
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Default Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

ok, so the Buzz-Bomb runs really cool oil temps. Like 150 degrees at idle and maybe creeps up to 195 tops after driving for 30 minutes. This is all during the summer as well....in texas. My set up is thus: stock black cooling shrouds, black cooling tin under the cylinders -(diverter plate removed as such), oversize fan, scat doghouse, no heater channels, and one of those run of the mill aftermarket oil coolers that mounts in front of the fan -half inch plumbing, 10W30 oil. no oil filter, no stock air thermostat -or any thermostats for that matter. I'm also running a smaller than stock crank pulley and oil pressure booster kit and dual exhuast with minimal baffling. The motor is completely exposed, no constricting airspace. Now that i've typed it all out it makes more sence as to why i have lower temps, but should they really be THAT low. I thought initially my guage or sender (new) was off, but i can lay my hand flat across the bottom of the engine and not get burned. It also takes the engine 20 minutes to get to 150, again i can press my hand up on the bottom of the engine. I've found that blocking the fan intake helps to get the temp up, but it still hovers around 150 indefinitely...and i'm afraid to leave the fan blocked at idle for much longer than it takes the motor to seem to run as thought 'warmed up' (even and responsive). so what do i need to do? All the web sites say that 180 is the lowest it should run, and 230 is on the high side,...but i can't get to 180 until i drive the thing around for a half hour in the summer. Using the drain plug type sending unit, VDO. Suggestions? oh,..and yeah, wintertime...125 maybe.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 03:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

I'd be more concerned about cylinder head temperatures.

Ideally,the oil would get a little warmer.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 04:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

My local VW shop suggested I take the VDO send unit that you put on a spark plug and put it on a head bolt. Great Idea! As Unk said there, you should be looking more at Cyl head temps. Maybe switch to one that can be mounted to a Cyl head? Is the oil plug syle just a ring that goes on the plug itself? If so you may be able to move it to a Cyl Head bolt?

I wouldnt expect to get very accurate results for engine temp on the bottom of the engine. However I am far from an export! lol
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Old February 21st, 2007, 04:33 PM   #4
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Stock thermostat and flaps will help it warm up faster.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 06:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Fair enough, i'll get on of those infrared temp sensors and see what's what with the cylinder temps, do we have listed norms on this site for cylinder head temps? My main concern is with such low oil temps...do i need to use a different weight oil, or synthetic maybe so that i'm not damaging my engine by not getting the oil up to temp?
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Old February 21st, 2007, 06:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Ideally,the oil will get over 210 F to drive off any condensation.

CHT,I'd be looking for less than 350 F under load.

You've got the aftermarket oil cooler in front of the fan ?
Generally, not the best idea.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 06:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Hot VW's did an article on engine temps and took some digital temp readings at different places......... Let me figure out the issue and I'll post it here with an edit. It will at least give you something to compare too......







EDIT: May 2006 Hot VW's

The article is titled: Reduce oil temps with an exhaust heat barrier
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Old February 21st, 2007, 06:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Ian, what's the bad news on my oil cooler?
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Old February 21st, 2007, 06:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

looks like this, left hand side of doghouse, i thought everybody had these...
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Old February 21st, 2007, 06:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

The air going across the oil cooler heats up,(that's how they work)
so you are trying to cool the motor with hotter air than necessary.

The oil temp stays down,because the sheer volume of air going through fan is cooling the oil,but that heat is now spread scross the rest of the cooling system.So you oil temps might be lower,and your CHT higher.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 07:38 PM   #11
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye-gouge
looks like this, left hand side of doghouse, i thought everybody had these...
I have run my oil cooler there, for many years. Never had a problem with it.

I have done it on full body cars, as well as buggys.

My 2 cents
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Old February 21st, 2007, 08:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Quote:
Originally Posted by dt113
I have run my oil cooler there, for many years. Never had a problem with it.

I have done it on full body cars, as well as buggys.

My 2 cents
I was thinking about getting an external oil cooler for my 58 bug, because i want to run a 1776 engine and was thinking that with no luvers in the deck lid that maybe it would not gett enough air. I also live in La, and drive my car every day so, hott summers are in store and i wouldlike to know if you have ever had any problems with them in front of the fan? also, how is the oil cooler taped into the engine?
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Old February 21st, 2007, 08:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye-gouge
, oversize fan ..... I'm also running a smaller than stock crank pulley
Oversize fan?
Larger diameter or wider?

A smaller crank pulley will slow your cooling fan down.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 11:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Fan is thicker than stock by 1/2 or 1/4 inch, can't remember exaclty.

Ian, I see what you are saying about pulling in warmer air thru the oil cooler and I asked the VW resto guy here in town that suggested it to me. He said he's been using them since forever and that in a stock beetle the temperature inder the hood gets pretty warm anyway. He says the net cooling effect of the 15% cooler oil translates into an overall decrease in engine and cylinder head temps, albeit a smaller difference in the heads, but not an increase. We considered that my fan is injesting near ambient temps, like at the most 110 degrees on a typical Texas summerday, as opposed to the underhood temps of closer to 140-150 degrees of a stock beetle and that is probably why i'm running cool. Too much cool air, even thru the oil cooler vanes...which as mentioned don't get get that hot anyway on my setup. He said the best thing to do was invest in a genuine VW doghouse with an intact thermostat set-up and let the engine decide hot or cool it needs to run. The whole possibility of a malfunctioning thermostat system scares me a bit. Every website I find says that mechanics took them off, but then NOW everybody suggests putting them back on and keeping them well maintained. I think I'll go that direction. Thanx for your input guys.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 11:40 AM   #15
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Scott, put the smaller crank pulley on afterwards in order to slow the fan to encourage a higher temp. Running too cool.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 12:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye-gouge
He said he's been using them since forever and that in a stock beetle the temperature inder the hood gets pretty warm anyway. ..... We considered that my fan is injesting near ambient temps, like at the most 110 degrees on a typical Texas summerday, as opposed to the underhood temps of closer to 140-150 degrees of a stock beetle
A properly sealed engine compartment on a stock Beetle should have no hot air inside while it's running.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 01:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

on the original thermostat setup the thermostate fails in the open position if it does not work(so wont cook you engine if it fails). also the small diameter pulley on the crank will make you fan spin faster due to overall circumference being different. that is if this is what you meant. if the fan on the fan is smaller same effect. now if both are smaller even faster.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguy
also the small diameter pulley on the crank will make you fan spin faster
You've got this backwards.

smaller driver pulley = slower fan
larger driver pulley = faster fan

smaller driven pulley = faster fan
larger driven pulley = slower fan
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:07 PM   #19
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Bigguy,
A smaller pulley on the crank will spin the fan slower with a stock size generator pulley, a smaller pulley on the generator will spin the fan faster with a stock size crank pulley. Check your geometry.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Engines have more friction running slightly too cold,
compared to slightly too hot.Sludge tends to form if
the oil doesn't get hot enough.

Late model water pumpers run MUCH hotter than older cars,
and last much longer.

The early Beetle fans,and shrouds,were narrower than the later ones.

Smaller crank pulley slows the fan down,requiring less hp.
Since the crank pulley is larger than the fan.the fan runs faster
than crankshaft speed.Smaller crank pulley changes the ratio
closer to 1:1.

The easy answer is move the oil cooler,and watch the gauges.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Good call, Ian. I'll try that first. Got plenty of room to relocate the cooler. Finding more 1/2in ID high temp oil hose will be the bitch.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Also, think I'll put an oil filter inline with the system first, slowing the oil flow should allow the oil to heat up a bit more I would think. (remebering that a stuck open thermostat in a water pumper makes it run cold at higher than idle rpms.)
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:27 PM   #23
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Quote:
The whole possibility of a malfunctioning thermostat system scares me a bit. Every website I find says that mechanics took them off, but then NOW everybody suggests putting them back on and keeping them well maintained. I think I'll go that direction. Thanx for your input guys.
In "theory" the thermostat should be used on VW aircooled....But! What I have been seeing in modern times with different fuel blends & faster harder driving conditions, is that thermostats can & do fail. I know they must be running hotter these days compared to the 60s & 70s and an overheated thermost will "baloon" out of shape and actually push out of the bracket and sometimes take out a pushrod tube.

One motor I did 3 years ago is owned by a woman who wanted it all stock, so I put on the thermostat. 2 years later I had it in for other work and saw the thermostat all out of shape and pushing the pushrod tube. Once they overheat and get out of shape, they will not be reuseable. If you run a thermostat, make sure to look at it from time to time in your hot climate.

On the different fan sizes; the wider fan is for the 1971-up doghouse type shroud. That wider one won't fit into a 63-70 shroud. But the 63-70 fan will fit the doghouse type but won't cool correctly as there is too much of a gap around the fan.

I did just think of a whack idea . You could scrounge up lower tinware for a 61 to early 63 stale air 40 and maybe modify it to fit the bigger motor...and then have a cable to manually close the bottom air flaps when you think it is too cold. Sort of like "baby-sitting" a woodstove on a cold winter night
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

one other question....I've seen the ring type thermocouples (sending unit) for temp guages, they offer them for VW powered aircraft engines ($$$$$) and I've also seen kits that have you drill and tap the thick aluminum style valve covers that i'm using,... but the sending unit wouldn't be seated in the actual head by that method, but rather the oil on the covers...and that would give you slightly lower temp reading than the true head temp. Am i right?
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 02:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: Overcooling...yeah OVER COOLING

Dailydriver,

Thanx for the fan info. I've got the right diameter, it's the thickness that is larger. All those vanes in my fan (the blades, if you will) are a 1/4 in. longer when view directly from above when mounted in the doghouse. If you laid it flat next to a stock fan, it's a quarter inch taller.
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