Cut-Weld-Drive Forums

Go Back   Cut-Weld-Drive Forums > The VolksRodders Forum > The Tech Bin

The Tech Bin An ARCHIVE of helpful and informative tech posts...


User Information
Your Avatar

Stuff to check out...

Cool stuff you NEED!

Forum Stats
Members: 17,473
Threads: 32,236
Posts: 544,720
Total Online: 489

Newest Member: THarr

Latest Threads
- by yimbo
- by JiI

 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 19th, 2007, 11:49 AM   #1
walt
Forum Member
 
walt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca.
Posts: 3,254
Default Split Tube Axle How To
Re:: The way to use a tube axle with split wishbones or hairpins   

I thought I'd try to do a little How to article on the split tube axle that I built for the FLAT 4RD project. Wish me luck here goes.




Independent Tube Axle

When the first person removed the stock four cylinder or flathead V8, engine and transmission, from his early Ford to replace it with something a little more powerful, he found that it became necessary to split the wishbones on the front end to clear the more modern transmission. The early ford front end was a marvelous design due to its triangular geometry. The single pivot point of the wishbone, enabled the front axle to move unimpeded. The first hot rodders found that it was necessary to split the wishbone and remount the ends at the frame rails so that the often much larger transmissions could be mounted between the frame rails. When they did this they had inadvertently created a problem that would continue to haunt hot rodders for years to come. When the wishbones are remounted in this way, they become part of an anti-roll bar or stabilizer bar with the axle itself becoming the torsion bar. The early I beam axles would perform fairly well as a torsion bar because they would flex with few problems but this design would put a lot of additional stress on mounting points and the frame rails themselves. When these guys started to use the much stronger 36 Ford tube axle they found that the problems became even greater. Then when the reproduction tube axles started to appear on the scene it became apparent that something had to be done to eliminate these problems. Eventually someone came up with the four bar design which allowed the front axle complete mobility with a rigid tube front axle.
Recently, there has been a renewed interest in old style hot rods that are built as closely to the originals as possible and the builders are finding that some of the old time problems have also returned. Whether we use an original split wishbone or manufactured hairpins there is a definite compromise when it comes to trouble free use and, the ride quality, is diminished significantly, over a four bar front-end.
There have been many attempts to deal with this problem such as a twin “I” beam axle like Ford uses on their pickup trucks but that design adds additional weight and creates a few undesirable geometry traits in itself. I will attempt to show you the way I’ve addressed this problem while working on my latest creation. It is not an old school project but I refer to it as a new old school rod. I’ve tried to keep as much of the classic hot rod touches and overall appearance as possible but have brought the whole thing into today’s world incorporating 4 wheel disc brakes, muti-link independent rear suspension, and all of the other safety features that are in the rest of the cars that I build.
I used a tube axle that I purchased from Speedway Motors because of the design of the axle. The center section of the axle is perfectly straight apposed to the gentle curve of the super bell and other after market axles. This allows me to cut the axle in half and machine an axle and bushing setup that will let the tube axle twist with out creating a bind at the frame rails.
First I machined shoulder bushings from bronze that will be pressed into the axle halves 3 ˝” on each side. I have also machined an axle made from 1” solid stainless steel shaft material. The ends of the stainless shaft have been turned down and threaded to 5/8” fine threads. I have also machined Stainless washers to act as a thrust washer between the bronze bushings and at the ends of the stepped axle between the bushings and the nylock nuts that hold the complete assembly together. When the nuts are tightened, there is only .0005” clearance in the whole bushing pack to insure a very tight fit. The bushings were then pressed into the tube axle ends and held in place with four 3/8” flathead screws in each bushing. It was also necessary to install a grease Zerk in each bushing so that lubrication can be maintained.
After reassembly of the front axle it was installed on the chassis and as you can see it has the unimpeded movement of a rock crawler with only the tell-tale signs of the bronze shoulder bushing at the center.
With this design, the front-end still has the un-sprung weight of a tube axle to deal with, which doesn’t ride as smoothly as an independent suspension, at least it does not allow the transfer of an uneven road surface transmitted to frame rails and ultimately to the seat of your pants.

Here is the axle cut in half in preparation for the bearing



The bushings are made from Bearing bronze on the lathe.


The bearing halves are secured to the axle with 5/16" N.F. flat head machine screws.


All of the parts are machined and ready to assemble. The inner axle is made from 1" diameter stainless steel. the ends are turned down and threaded to 5/8" N.F. threads. Heavy thrust washers are also made from stainless steel.



Here is the inner bearing assembly assembled.


And another picture with the bearing assembly installed in the axle.




Another view ready to bolt up to the hair pins.




This shows just how much flexibility the front end has now that the axle can twist.




Try that with your beam axle.
__________________
Give me something to cut with, I'm going to build a Volksrod.

I'm bilingual.......I talk to men and women

My Volks-Rod
Rat Patrol Web Page
Rat Patrol photos
Rat Patrol Car Build Thread
Rat Patrol Timeline
Rat Patrol Videos
(RIGHT click and choose SAVE TARGET AS and download to your PC)
Movie1
Movie2
walt is offline  
Old December 19th, 2007, 11:55 AM   #2
onelowzuki
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: pa
Posts: 2,246
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Excellent info, Thanks Walt
onelowzuki is offline  
Old December 19th, 2007, 12:28 PM   #3
Ray-Dean
Forum Member
 
Ray-Dean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South of Disorder: a.k.a. Bristow, Ok
Posts: 7,700
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Quote:
Originally Posted by walt View Post
Try that with your beam axle.



I can almost do that same thing with my twinI beam!

__________________
My Kindergarten report card:
DOESN'T PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS!!!
Ray-Dean is offline  
Old December 19th, 2007, 12:43 PM   #4
Rattakus
Forum Member
 
Rattakus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 213
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

WOW. You almost made that look easy. Very well done though and it looks great.
__________________
"We came to wreck everything and ruin your life .... God sent us."

Romper Stomper - 1992
Rattakus is offline  
Old December 19th, 2007, 12:57 PM   #5
UncleSlacker
Forum Member
 
UncleSlacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Elvisville, Tennessee
Posts: 621
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Walt, do you mind if I copy this over to the NTBA (National T Bucket Alliance) BBS?

Betcha there's a bunch of bucketheads that would LOVE to see this... and love to have an axle like this also (myself included).
UncleSlacker is offline  
Old December 19th, 2007, 04:06 PM   #6
walt
Forum Member
 
walt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca.
Posts: 3,254
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleSlacker View Post
Walt, do you mind if I copy this over to the NTBA (National T Bucket Alliance) BBS?

Betcha there's a bunch of bucketheads that would LOVE to see this... and love to have an axle like this also (myself included).

Be my guest.
__________________
Give me something to cut with, I'm going to build a Volksrod.

I'm bilingual.......I talk to men and women

My Volks-Rod
Rat Patrol Web Page
Rat Patrol photos
Rat Patrol Car Build Thread
Rat Patrol Timeline
Rat Patrol Videos
(RIGHT click and choose SAVE TARGET AS and download to your PC)
Movie1
Movie2
walt is offline  
Old December 19th, 2007, 05:08 PM   #7
UncleSlacker
Forum Member
 
UncleSlacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Elvisville, Tennessee
Posts: 621
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Alright Walt, I posted it. If you want to watch the discussion I'll post a link for ya.

Prediction? Safety concerns with the bearing halves being secured to the axle with 5/16" N.F. flat head machine screws. Other than that I hope they all dig it as much as I do.

http://www.nationaltbucketalliance.c....asp?Id=108743
UncleSlacker is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 07:47 AM   #8
hotrodheb
Moderator
 
hotrodheb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 10,159
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleSlacker View Post
Prediction? Safety concerns with the bearing halves being secured to the axle with 5/16" N.F. flat head machine screws.
Honestly, after hanging out a lot with Walt and watching him work on this stuff, if he says those screws will work, then they will work! Walt does not skrimp on any safety issues!
__________________
Rob C.


"READ more... post LESS." - Steve

"Girls who weld kick ass!" - Notched

"Grumpy, the new master of Anti-Donk." - TurboPunk

hotrodheb is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 08:47 AM   #9
Steve
Administradora El Polacko
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Polish Harlem --- Illahee, WA
Posts: 8,576
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

That is one great write-up Pops!

And like Rob said... he knows his stuff. Especially when it comes to suspensions.
Steve is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 09:02 AM   #10
UncleSlacker
Forum Member
 
UncleSlacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Elvisville, Tennessee
Posts: 621
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

hotrodheb "Honestly, after hanging out a lot with Walt and watching him work on this stuff, if he says those screws will work, then they will work! Walt does not skrimp on any safety issues!"

Steve "And like Rob said... he knows his stuff. Especially when it comes to suspensions."


I agree. But after a recent failure of a Chrome Pitman arm for a Corviar steering box there's been a lot of concern about safety.

As for my prediction, not one person has yet to say anything... so I FAIL at predictions huh?

The reason for my prediction? Shear pins on my bush hog have recently been failing quite regularly and I figured someone would say something about the forces exerted on those eight little screws and whatever.

Walt surely knows better than I do about how this stuff works.
UncleSlacker is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 09:17 AM   #11
hotrodheb
Moderator
 
hotrodheb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 10,159
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleSlacker View Post
I figured someone would say something about the forces exerted on those eight little screws and whatever.
EDIT - Never mind me, just talking out of my ass! LOL
__________________
Rob C.


"READ more... post LESS." - Steve

"Girls who weld kick ass!" - Notched

"Grumpy, the new master of Anti-Donk." - TurboPunk

hotrodheb is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 10:13 AM   #12
UncleSlacker
Forum Member
 
UncleSlacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Elvisville, Tennessee
Posts: 621
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

hotrodheb For the record, there are a total of 16 screws holding the axle together, 4 on each side up front and 4 on each side on the back.

I've looked at those pics hundreds of times and always thought there were only screws on the backside.

http://dons.zenfolio.com/p861300798/...7E88#737394980

http://dons.zenfolio.com/p861300798/...7E88#990828496
UncleSlacker is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:27 AM   #13
hotrodheb
Moderator
 
hotrodheb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 10,159
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleSlacker View Post
hotrodheb For the record, there are a total of 16 screws holding the axle together, 4 on each side up front and 4 on each side on the back.

I've looked at those pics hundreds of times and always thought there were only screws on the backside.

http://dons.zenfolio.com/p861300798/...7E88#737394980

http://dons.zenfolio.com/p861300798/...7E88#990828496
ahhh shit, I think your right... I was looking at this pic, and the markings on the tube looked like screw heads...


My bad!
__________________
Rob C.


"READ more... post LESS." - Steve

"Girls who weld kick ass!" - Notched

"Grumpy, the new master of Anti-Donk." - TurboPunk

hotrodheb is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:34 AM   #14
Unkl Ian
Trouble Maker and Bad Influence
 
Unkl Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: A distant galaxy;far,far,away.
Posts: 16,945
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

The load on the screws isn't huge,
and I bet they already have more miles on them than the Chrome Pitman arm that broke.


Very clever design Walt.
__________________

www.FlyingEyeballs.net

Unkl Ian is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:47 AM   #15
mkparker
Forum Member
 
mkparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sherman, TX
Posts: 5,896
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

I'm sure most of you know, but just in case.
Chrome = hydrogen embrittlement
__________________
Michael




mkparker is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:51 AM   #16
Unkl Ian
Trouble Maker and Bad Influence
 
Unkl Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: A distant galaxy;far,far,away.
Posts: 16,945
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

The parts also need to be baked within a few hours of being plated.
__________________

www.FlyingEyeballs.net

Unkl Ian is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:52 AM   #17
Flipper_1938
Forum Member
 
Flipper_1938's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
The load on the screws isn't huge,
.
Don't they bear the brunt(sp?) of all of the cornering forces? ....in a turn, wouldn't the inside tire try to pull the bushing out of the axle tube? and the only thing holding the axle together is these screws that are screwed into bronze (not sure if screws or bushing is the weakest link)?

The same idea, but with the bushing made out of steel (w/thin walled bronze bushing)....and the bushing welded to the axle tube, would be bomb-proof.
__________________
There are two things in life where penetration is really important....and welding is one.

Its all fun and games .........until somebody calls the cops.

My wife is as mean as a snake as it is. I'm not saying I couldn't woop her in a fair fight, but she doesn't fight fair.

"gonna try the lube and beatin' on it tomorrow... " -Cutman

Last edited by Flipper_1938; December 20th, 2007 at 11:57 AM.
Flipper_1938 is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 12:23 PM   #18
Unkl Ian
Trouble Maker and Bad Influence
 
Unkl Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: A distant galaxy;far,far,away.
Posts: 16,945
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Is there a Panhard Bar,as part of this design ?
__________________

www.FlyingEyeballs.net

Unkl Ian is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 01:04 PM   #19
mkparker
Forum Member
 
mkparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sherman, TX
Posts: 5,896
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Yes.

__________________
Michael




mkparker is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 01:56 PM   #20
38Chevy454
Forum Member
 
38Chevy454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Tijeras, NM (Albuquerque)
Posts: 1,492
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Great write-up Walt. The argument about the shear strength of the 8 bolts does not hold up to engineering analysis. Your design is fine and even overkill, based on simple analysis.

The shear strength of a 5/16 bolt is:
Grade 5 = 5750 lbs minimum
Grade 8 = 6980 lbs minimum

Since your design has 4 bolts per side, and even using the lower grade 5 spec values, 4 x 5750 = 23000 lbs.

Now if anyone can think that there is 23000 lbs of force trying to pull apart that axle, they are crazy. Walt's design has a numerous times factor of safety.
__________________
High Quality USA-made bear claw latches and install kits CHEAP!

buy here directly: www.hotrodlatches.com
38Chevy454 is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 02:03 PM   #21
hal
Forum Member
 
hal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: brentwood nor. ca.
Posts: 3,305
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Q. Walt , did it brake when you drove it ?

A. no





















must be a good design
__________________
wow....you guys can delete 'em faster than i can post 'em..... GOOD JOB
hal is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 02:18 PM   #22
UncleSlacker
Forum Member
 
UncleSlacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Elvisville, Tennessee
Posts: 621
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

Funny how my speculation that someone MIGHT suggest those little screws might not be enough has turned into a discussion such as this... and that's GREAT because we can discuss things like this right?

I friggin dig it, would love to have one mounted on the front of my little hotrod... and I can guarantee that it would be put through the paces as I drive like JEHU (see 2 Kings 9:20).

Again, the strength was never questioned... it was suggested that someone might question it.

So Walt, how much would it cost to make something like this for someone if, say, they sent you a tube axle???
UncleSlacker is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 03:01 PM   #23
walt
Forum Member
 
walt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca.
Posts: 3,254
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

[quote=38Chevy454;284088]Your design is fine and even overkill, based on simple analysis.

quote]

That pretty funny. Kent Fuller has nick named me "The King of Over Engineering"
__________________
Give me something to cut with, I'm going to build a Volksrod.

I'm bilingual.......I talk to men and women

My Volks-Rod
Rat Patrol Web Page
Rat Patrol photos
Rat Patrol Car Build Thread
Rat Patrol Timeline
Rat Patrol Videos
(RIGHT click and choose SAVE TARGET AS and download to your PC)
Movie1
Movie2
walt is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 03:24 PM   #24
Steve White
Forum Member
 
Steve White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Quinte Ontario
Posts: 1,511
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

thats a full fledged kick ass product right there. I'd have a website up offering copies of that bad boy for sale if'n I wuz U.

I've spent quite a bit of time on your site as well as your buds ...Leatherman I think?, neway, holely #$*&@#$ you guys are #@#*&% artists and your tutorial is a hell of a nice contribution to the hobby. good shit.
Steve White is offline  
Old December 20th, 2007, 03:24 PM   #25
speedfreak
Forum Member
 
speedfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kalispell MT
Posts: 3,045
Default Re: Split Tube Axle How To

You know, after meeting Walt and talking to him, I'm amazed that he even came up with that design! (damn farm boy)





love ya Pops!


Larry
speedfreak is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
axle, split tube axle

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ALL text, images, graphics and content herein are Copyright ©2002 - 2013 Three Pugs Design - Cut Weld Drive Forums