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Old April 22nd, 2012, 04:31 PM   #1
Meat/Grinder
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Default rear apron delete?????

Going to run fenders and running boards for a while yet. Is there any issue regarding not having a rear apron? Not going to run with a lid. going to fab a little bracket for the plate. running a moded stinger pipe, not full bumper.

What do you think folks?????

joe
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 04:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

No different than a baja.
May run a little warmer than usual.
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Originally Posted by fishguts
My attraction to volksrods is that these are bottom-feeders where things are still real ... people scraping together parts, doing their own work and often on a tight budget. Real hot rodding is still alive here.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 07:25 PM   #3
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

I think it will actually run cooler. My bajas have always ran much cooler than stock.
Wont hurt it at all. But I have to ask --- why?
Why not just take it all off when you remove the fenders?
Or just remove the offending fenders at the same time as you remove the
apron.
Sounds interesting though - lets see some pics!
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 07:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Oh wait - just saw your build page.
To remove the apron you can just drill the spot welds out which will allow
you to attach / take it of really easy. You have to take of the back fenders
temporarily to get at them all.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 03:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

It may run a little warmer from not being sealed and pulling hot air off of the exhaust, there is a reason VW had body seals and the engine tins there. Also the rear fenders will move around without any support from the apron.
Tim
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 07:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

ok. Thanks for thereplies. So ueres the deal. I am going to run full.fender for awhile yet. Working the kinks out as I go, but I want to drive the Grinder while I figure things out.. Do to a multi level fusion in my neck I would prefer to not crawl around on the ground too much while the bug is on jackstands. So until I finish this stage of the build, it will.remain fendered.
So from what I have read. It will operate at an as of yet undetermined different temperature. It will also suffer from some fender movement, unless I use the apron as a removable structure by drilling all the spot welds and re- attach with hard ware. Please correct me at aaaannnnyyyy time here folks.
Thanks Joe
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 07:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

You could always make a cross brace to keep the fenders more stable. I would think a simple bar bolted across would help. Curved of course to clear the motor.

Cooling. If you look at the way the compartment is designed, stock, the lower half is sealed off. The upper side, fan pulls in air from above, goes thru unit, blows cooler air over cylinders and pushes heat out the bottom and with lower tins, air is forced out the back. Running down the road, there is a slight vacuum that helps draw air out the back too.
So yeah, some slightly higher temps may happen, especially sitting still, on a hot day, in traffic. Driving faster will not help.

If you plan on installing gauges later anyways, I'd at least put in a pressure gauge. If it gets hot, it will be much lower when driving.
EX: I can't use the bug since it was driven for a month during winter w/o a deck lid but in my bus, if I drive normal 55-58, it stays at 35-40lbs, (I have a temp gauge 190*). If I drive above 60 for more than 5 miles, hard for my bus but it will, the oil drops below 30 and temp is 225*. Slow down, and it cools off and oil comes back up.

Most with wide open bajas will run an extra or an outside oil cooler and extra fan.
Just be cautious and you should be fine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishguts
My attraction to volksrods is that these are bottom-feeders where things are still real ... people scraping together parts, doing their own work and often on a tight budget. Real hot rodding is still alive here.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 08:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Thanks P Myth. Going to remove 48 pass cooler and.install a 72 pass and fan with temp switch. Mounted in line yet after filter, under driver side of parcel tray. I want to mount it with fan blowing up and.through the cooler? Or should the fan pull the air? Kinda usefull to know. This will help determine what ducting is needed and.where it will go.

Thanks about the brace idea. Have some aluminum I-beam that may get repurpased.

Forgot to mention. Dog house cooler delete and use of aluminum tapered shroud. It needs some rework but it will do.

Joe
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 09:18 AM   #9
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat/Grinder View Post

Forgot to mention. Dog house cooler delete and use of aluminum tapered shroud. It needs some rework but it will do.

Joe
Get a stock shroud or at least, a 36 horse shroud with the directional vanes inside of it. Those aluminum angle shrouds are probably the worst made for cooling. There have been some testing run on what works and what doesnt posted on the samba.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 09:27 AM   #10
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Looking at the intro~
Timbo, he has duals carbs. 1915.
http://volksrods.com/forum/showthrea...534#post536534
Will that still housing fit?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishguts
My attraction to volksrods is that these are bottom-feeders where things are still real ... people scraping together parts, doing their own work and often on a tight budget. Real hot rodding is still alive here.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 09:31 AM   #11
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

BTW~ ,
Quote:
Originally Posted by MG
8 inch beam extender found at random stop at little junk yard.
Fyi, you won't find one of these just anywhere. They are custom made. Check with Dbug71, he's a vendor here.
Just noticed that in your intro.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishguts
My attraction to volksrods is that these are bottom-feeders where things are still real ... people scraping together parts, doing their own work and often on a tight budget. Real hot rodding is still alive here.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 09:46 AM   #12
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

I have to respectfully diagree guys on the temp issue.
I ran a bug like that for awhile while turning it into a baja.
It still had the rear fender portions on it but no apron and
no rear deck lid. It ran cooler. Maybe it is because we live in the Pacific Northwest and dont see allot of that Sunshine stuff
Just my experience. It will be interesting ti see in any event.

Ive got a buddy of mine that is running a 72 pass
on his external oil cooler He runs his fans pushing.
They are mounted on top of his oil cooler and the oil
cooler is mounted at an angle above the engine.
This is a baja that sees daily use and off roading.
He also mounted a cover over the whole thing a
an air scoop. He said he vary rarely uses the fans.
I always thought this would be a great way to get heat into the car. You cound mount it so the fans push the hot air into the cabin. And not have to run heater boxes.
Although with a 1904 I have to wonder if your really getting any benifit from a External cooler? I have seen many engines wasted from a well intentioned person running external oil coolers. The stock Dog house oil cooler actually works quite well. As a side note you need to get oil cooler lines that
are designed for oil. You cannot use Coolant lines
like the typ. auto parts store sells. The oil will just break it down and they will fail.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 10:24 AM   #13
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Thanks for all the info Folks,

thanks for the concern in regards to the oil line. purchased 3500 psi air craft rated oil line ( way over kill ) is 1/2 in line with aprox 1/4 thick wall with dual fiber reinforcment. over all outside dia is just shy ov an inch.

The original shroud took it in the end and shed all the internal vanes and almost wiping out the fan and generator. when I pulled the shroud off this last time I found small bits o metal stuck in the dog house cooler. For me the 72 pass and fan set up will sufice as, very soon, the car will be driven mostly a night.

In regards to the dog house delete.... Soon to install ingnition module on fire wall driver side. Need to make room for it. would like to have more room to work on kadrons. Dog house delete also allows me to remove shroud and gen. w/o pulling motor. minor neccessity as limited in mobility most times.

Yup found beam extender at local small shop here in diego.
maesured it and it seems close to 8 out and almost 2 up. I will post pictures tonight..

Thanks Joe
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 01:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

The shitty aftermarket shrouds
don't have the necessary vanes inside.

They might look cool, but your motor will disagree.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 01:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Is it running hot? Why do you want to remove the apron and decklid, for looks? The oil cooler is just that, an oil cooler. It will not help cool the heads and cylinders. I have ran my 1850cc (76x88 slip ins) since the late 80's when i built it. It has never ran hot and I have a stock dog house shroud and non vented decklid driven in 10 degree weather to upper 90's with a lot of humidity. My 1904cc with 10:1 comperssion ratio runs 36 horse dog house shroud and a louvered decklid in my 65 bug. An external cooler is a lot of pluming and chances for more problems. JMHO
Tim
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 03:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Ok,Folks. Here it goes. The apron delete...... Ease of engine removal. Not going to run a deck lid.

Dog house cooler delete....I would like to run a coil pack style ignition system and an angled shroud for the same reason. But gain benefit of additional Carbs clearance...

Installing a 72 pass with fan oil cooler and additional cold air ducting to aid in cooling.

I do however realize that the shroud I wish to use does not have vanes internally mounted. This is not a problem at this time. I love to tinker. With a proper set o gauges I intend to modify the internalls of said shroud. The dog house cooler delete will allow me to remove the shroud and generator when ever I need to make changes.

But the end result is... No fenders full volksrod rear chop and associated sheet metal work cut and trim front to fit extender steering box gas cap mod for through bonnet access convertible support rails and a hand made oak Carson top to boot. Then maybe I might worry about paint.

Yup it is a long way to go but by golly I am going to get there some day.

Thanks Joe
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 04:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Here are update pics. hope this answers some Q's and starts some more. These show in order....left to right top to bottom.

oil cooler block off plate..for dog house oil cooler delete
the shroud I am going to use..... for a while
and the beam extender I found sitting on a shelf at a local parts place in diego.......Yup, unknown builder, any help would be nice




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Old April 23rd, 2012, 04:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Only 2 guys I know doing and did them professionally are
Dbug



and



tinbeater who has stopped a couple years ago. There are some done at homes that look decent though.
Looks good.
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My attraction to volksrods is that these are bottom-feeders where things are still real ... people scraping together parts, doing their own work and often on a tight budget. Real hot rodding is still alive here.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 05:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

looks like tinbeaters original design. Or i might be full of shit.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 05:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Didnt bugdust make a small limited amount as well.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 05:18 PM   #21
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Doesn't matter how big your oil cooler, cylinder head temps
will be very uneven with a vaneless shroud.


Some of the dragrace guys make the rear apron
removable, or mount a piece of tubing to act as a support.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 05:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

OkOkOk Unkl Ian, the shroud does in fact contain not a single vane....... atmo. But I would like very much to fart around with this shroud to see if they can be modded to work better. I know it will not pass muster in a side to side comparison with a stock trim set up. I would like to learn some things by trial and error. If ,for the sake of argument, I never get it to work at all, I have still gained knowledge and exorcized a greater courage. Then I go and pick up a set of tins sanz heat

Hell back in "06 I was facing having to spend the rest of my days in a wheel chair if I took a miss-step and fell wrong. now have 3 fused vertebra in my neck with 6 screws and a titanium plate holding my head in place just so I don't forget it at home. luckily I don't have to get those adjusted.

In '07 I re-joined the working class. '08 bought a bug, replaced the whole fubared front end, pulled a motor (with assistance) replaced both pan halves, installed a fresh motor ( that time no help) Re-oriented a mondo mufler by hacking it off and brazing it back on ( well after beating the h3ll outta the r/r fender to try and make it fit.
Sorry got into that rant mode again.

Still working, still got Das Grinder. Now it is time to make it mine and make it shine.

Big thanks for the encouragement from all. Esp. those willing to share some knowledge.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 06:06 PM   #23
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

You will need 2 CHT gauges, one for each side, and a ton of time.

Temps should be the same on both sides.
Anything close to 400 F is a serious problem.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 06:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Thanks Unkl Ian,

do you have any particular type make and or model of CHT that you like to use?

Joe
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 06:26 PM   #25
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Default Re: rear apron delete?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
The shitty aftermarket shrouds
don't have the necessary vanes inside.

They might look cool, but your motor will disagree.
I bought a aftermarket 36 HP shroud last weekend that actually had vanes in it. It also had heater duct and those will be going away, as heaters are gay. I am welding those up.

Anyway I agree about the aftermarket shrouds without vanes especially chrome those will run your engine extra hot.
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