Cut-Weld-Drive Forums

Go Back   Cut-Weld-Drive Forums > The VolksRodders Forum > The Cutting Board

The Cutting Board Cut... Weld... DRIVE.


User Information
Your Avatar

Stuff to check out...

Cool stuff you NEED!

Forum Stats
Members: 17,473
Threads: 32,236
Posts: 544,720
Total Online: 493

Newest Member: THarr

Latest Threads
- by yimbo
- by JiI

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 11th, 2016, 03:37 PM   #1
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default MSD Billet Distributor
Re:: I need advanced curves in Crayola talk..   

So I think the fact that I don't really understand the charts is screwing me up setting my timing/advance..

I was running one light silver and one heavy silver spring, but recently switched to two light springs.. if I am reading the charts right (i'm probably not..) I want two heavy silver springs..

Here is how I'm reading it, please correct me..

With two light silver springs.. my idle should be around 1400RPMs, and with a black stop bushing, I'll be "all-in" at around 2000RPMS..

But with two heavy silver springs, my idle will be about 1400RPMs and i'll be "all-in" around 3800RPMs..

here are the engine specs:
1776cc
69mm DPR counterweighted crank
stock rebuilt balanced con rods
AA 90.5 pistons and cylinders
Brothers round port 40x35.5 heads
Dual 40IDF webers
MSD 6AL box
MSD Distributor
MSD Blaster 2 coil
MSD plug wires
NGK plugs (I want to say DPR6E but I can't be certain without pulling on, my memory sucks..)
Compufire 90amp dual cool alternator
A-1 Stainless Steel 1 1/2" exhaust
timing is currently 7.5* at idle and about 28* at 3000RPMs..
Freeway flyer tranny

Symptoms rightnow:

pain in the ass to start when cold
idle is set around 900RPMS, but the alternator light flickers below about 1100..
Runs alright when I finally get it started, but just "feels" like it's not getting the power it should

I haven't gotten brave enough to go too far from home since it's having such problems starting, so I'm not sure how it'll act on the freeway.

Any ideas?

I got tomorrow off of work and want to tweak it some and try and get it reliable again..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capture.JPG (179.8 KB, 16 views)
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2016, 03:53 PM   #2
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Quote:
Originally Posted by whozawhat View Post
heavier springs need more centrifugal force to overcome, that is why "all in" or full advance does not come until a higher rpm. Lighter springs are easier to overcome and allow for advance at a lower rpm.
If your valves are set correctly, and you are getting good spark when it cranks then I would look at the carbs as the possible problem with starting.
What has been done to it since it ran well the last time?
the last time i s ran "daily-driver" well, was in 2007.. then I put a shitty exhaust on that wasn't advertised as requiring j-tubes (i still had my heater boxes..) and ran with a major exhaust leak until I cracked a head.. ever since then, poor bug has been aback burner project car that I screw with when I have time/money..

and back then it was still this 1776, but it was a lot more "stock" 009 dizzy, regular wires, stock fuel pump, etc..

in 2012, I rebuilt the engine, new bearings, cam/lifters, heads, P&Cs, ignition, etc.. So i'm poking blindly trying to track down problems :/

basically, I'm doing this the stupid way, haha!

luckily, it's not the only car I own or I would have been FUBAR'ed years ago..
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2016, 04:03 PM   #3
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

I'm trying to remember my jetting.. Without going and pulling the stacks, I can't recall..

but I did just swap 52.5 idles for 60 idles a couple of nights ago..

I want to say that I'm currently running 1.4 main's and 2.0 A/C's

I don't think I deviated on those, I think I was just tweaking the idles.. it used to have 55's but I broke two of them so I can't go back until I buy more..
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2016, 05:59 PM   #4
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Quote:
Originally Posted by whozawhat View Post
I don't know your carbs, never worked on them so I am no help with them.
But with all other bases covered it leads to a carb issue.
Maybe someone familiar with those carbs can pipe up.
Yeah, I think they still need some fine tuning, but I'm curious about the advance springs.. I don't understand them i guess and everything I find explaining them, takes it for granted that the reader knows what they are doing.. haha
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2016, 08:37 AM   #5
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Quote:
Originally Posted by whozawhat View Post
when you look at your charts it shows different combinations of those springs,
the graph for each combination shows the slope of the advance curve, or how fast the advance happens
the heavier springs have a shallower slope and do not get to their full advance point (full advance is controlled by whichever colored stop bushing is used) until the engine is at a higher rpm than when using a combination of springs that is lighter.
the lighter spring combinations react quicker because they take less force to overcome, and the slope on the graph is steeper.
the force is produced by the counter weights the springs attach too being spun around,
think of a strong boy and a weak boy on the spinning merry-go-round in the kids park,
as the other kids spin the MGR faster the weak boy will get flung off earlier than the strong boy, same as weak (light) springs versus strong (heavier) springs.
so as the counterweights get flung outwards and overcome the springs this allows for the distributor mechanism to advance the timing by rotating the trigger into the direction of rotation and making the spark happen earlier/advanced.

good general info here http://www.vw-resource.com/timing_discussion.html
here's where I flaunt my ignorance... what does "advance" mean?

I know it has something to do with the degree of rotation. What I'm speculating is that for instance 7.5* at idle means the distributor is sending a spark 7.5* before the ignition point of the combustion cycle because the speed of the engine at that point means the spark will arrive exactly when compression is at it's highest..

so when operating at 3000rpms, it instead sends the spark 28.5* ahead of the ignition point because it has to send it sooner to arrive at the top of the compression portion.

like leading a player when passing the puck so it arrives where they will be and not where they are when you pass.. right?

so by using light springs, it will start "leading" the ignition point of the cycle at lower rpms? and with heavy springs, it will "lead" the ignition point less at slower rpms and then taper up as the rpms cause the weights to pull out?

__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2016, 09:04 PM   #6
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Did some more leg work on my own and found this:
Quote:
Ignition before top dead center causes "negative torque" and that's what suddenly STOPS your engine from cranking. Avoid this, or use a retard that is activated during cranking.
here: http://www.vw-resource.com/right_dizzy.html#Finding

I think that's what's happening now.. it cranks fine, but seems like it stops suddenly when i stop turning the key.. I don't know how else to describe it, normally you stop turning and it might roll over a couple of times, but mine just stops..

If I understand everything right so far, that means that 7.5* advance at idle is too little..

I think I used to have it around 12, but the samba peoples threw a shit fit like i was crazy doing that and said it should be around 7.5...

gonna have to try putting it back and see how it does..
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2016, 10:57 AM   #7
theredbarn
Forum Member
 
theredbarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Kingston WA
Posts: 191
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

The total advance available to you is similar to the 009. Suggest you set your total advance the same. 3K RPM / 30* advance. That will also move your idle advance a corresponding amount at probably bring idle up to around 1000-1100 RPM.

Your engine specs are very similar to my son's car - his compression is up at 9.4:1. Your jetting looks close but might be a bit fat. He's running 55 idles 1.35 main and 1.90 air. But as we all know every engine in every region is going to be just a bit different...
theredbarn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2016, 11:55 AM   #8
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredbarn View Post
The total advance available to you is similar to the 009. Suggest you set your total advance the same. 3K RPM / 30* advance. That will also move your idle advance a corresponding amount at probably bring idle up to around 1000-1100 RPM.

Your engine specs are very similar to my son's car - his compression is up at 9.4:1. Your jetting looks close but might be a bit fat. He's running 55 idles 1.35 main and 1.90 air. But as we all know every engine in every region is going to be just a bit different...
Brought the timing up to about 30.5@3200rpms.. that sits it around 12@1000-1100 idle.. run MUCH nicer now

I broke two of my 55idles last time I rebuilt the carbs (idiot mistake on my part, forgot the o-rings and hand tightened the screws, but crushed two of them.. like I said, idiot-mistake..)

so I'm running 60 idles right now (I only have 50, 52.5 and 60 in my kit at the moment..), I forget, but I think I have 1.2 mains, and 2.0 A/C's right now, without pulling the stems and checking I can't be certain though..

Anyway, since it's running again I made a celebratory beer run and now have full power again. I took 1st, 2nd and 3rd up to about 5800rpms and it was running great, no backfire or stutter.
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2016, 12:00 PM   #9
alykat
Site Supporter
 
alykat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hotchkiss, colo. (near Grand Junction )
Posts: 2,620
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

And there ya go sailor ! Back on deck.
__________________
" Heros don't wear capes...they wear dog tags" "Patina my ass....That's RUST !"
alykat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2016, 12:54 PM   #10
V8Transporter
Site Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northern CA, near the Russian River.
Posts: 5,280
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Way to go! If it was easy...well you know.
V8Transporter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2016, 01:10 PM   #11
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

ok, so still some popping on decelleration, but drove it to work today, made it there and back without issue.

Really just need to find a place with someone who can actually tune webers and dial in my timing(by swapping out jets and finding the best combo, not just syncing them..).. I can probably figure it out myself, but I kinda just want to get it done right and drive..
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2016, 04:02 PM   #12
theredbarn
Forum Member
 
theredbarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Kingston WA
Posts: 191
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

If you're pulling that kind of RPM without going lean I'd say the main/air's about dead on. When you put in the 60 idles did you adjust for best lean idle? I'd bet your adjuster screws are in pretty tight? (less than 2 turns out?) If so I'd get a some 55 idles to replace the broken ones and replace them. If you are more than 2 turns out - heck - RUN EM!
theredbarn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2016, 04:51 PM   #13
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredbarn View Post
If you're pulling that kind of RPM without going lean I'd say the main/air's about dead on. When you put in the 60 idles did you adjust for best lean idle? I'd bet your adjuster screws are in pretty tight? (less than 2 turns out?) If so I'd get a some 55 idles to replace the broken ones and replace them. If you are more than 2 turns out - heck - RUN EM!
Everything I've read recently says you should be about 1.25 turns out..

Every time i adjust something, i set em at 2 and turn in until they run worse, then out until it runs best..

Right now I think I'm probably about 1.5-1.75 on each screw..

It runs strong, just pops and backfires out the exhaust on decelleration..
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2016, 07:56 AM   #14
theredbarn
Forum Member
 
theredbarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Kingston WA
Posts: 191
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Idles are just a tad too big then... You're backfiring because you are allowing too much fuel in decel and it's not getting burnt completely. The exhaust charge is then hitting the hot exhaust (where there is a better air fuel mix) and igniting. OK for racing because it runs a little cooler, but noisy on the street. The Kid's car will do that when it get's run up to high RPMs but in normal - under 4k pulls driving around town it's fine. I'd definitely change the idles back to 55 and you should be fine.
theredbarn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2016, 01:02 PM   #15
tattooed_pariah
Site Supporter
 
tattooed_pariah's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 3,830
Member Photo Albums
Default Re: MSD Billet Distributor

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredbarn View Post
Idles are just a tad too big then... You're backfiring because you are allowing too much fuel in decel and it's not getting burnt completely. The exhaust charge is then hitting the hot exhaust (where there is a better air fuel mix) and igniting. OK for racing because it runs a little cooler, but noisy on the street. The Kid's car will do that when it get's run up to high RPMs but in normal - under 4k pulls driving around town it's fine. I'd definitely change the idles back to 55 and you should be fine.
yeah, need to order two more and get that done..

I really want to take it somewhere with a wideband and someone that KNOWS what they are doing wideband tuning old vw's.. from what i understand, you can REALLY dial it in perfect that way. I would invest in a tuner myself, but i don't know what i'm doing with it, so I'd hate to have a $200 shiny tool I can't use.. i got enough of those :P
__________________
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.
===========
Feel free to stare and admire,
but kindly tell me if it's on fire!

1972 VolksRod "Effigy" Build Thread
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread
tattooed_pariah is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ALL text, images, graphics and content herein are Copyright 2002 - 2013 Three Pugs Design - Cut Weld Drive Forums