Cut-Weld-Drive Forums

Go Back   Cut-Weld-Drive Forums > The VolksRodders Forum > The Cutting Board

The Cutting Board Cut... Weld... DRIVE.


User Information
Your Avatar

Stuff to check out...


Cool stuff you NEED!

Forum Stats
Members: 16,634
Threads: 31,716
Posts: 534,158
Total Online: 77

Newest Member: bushwackerbuggys

Latest Threads
- by sandman

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 20th, 2004, 04:11 PM   #1
p-nor
Forum Member
 
p-nor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: paso robles, ca.
Posts: 3,358
Default

i'm wanting to narrow the rear end of the ghia a few inches for tire clearance and had a question about the procedure. i know i need narrowed axles and tubes. my question is about the spring plates. do you z the plates to get them to line back up to the axles or will they reach? i've never heard of, or seen z'ed spring plates available for sale. i've also never heard this part of the job ever discussed. anyone here narrow a s.a. rear?








paul
__________________
i'm really scared but i'm even more confused, so i end up doing nothing.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/
p-nor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 05:13 PM   #2
Chris
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: N. Seattle
Posts: 586
Default

There's several ways to do it as I understand..

Z-springplates
Modified axle tubes - moving the springplate bolt flange
Narrowed rear torsion housing
__________________
AKA \"Azure'67\" and \"Chris V\" at STF
<a href=\'http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77\' target=\'_blank\'>http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77[/url]
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 06:24 PM   #3
Jon
Forum Member
 
Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Behind you, Breathing heavy on your neck.
Posts: 6,254
Default

From what I understand, you use a combonation of stock spring plates and torsion bars to get the desired results.
I believe you use like the springplate setup for the longest or longer torsion bars in conjunction with the shortest or shorter torsion bars.
I do not know all the sizes but I think you should plan according to whats available.

I do know how else to describe this other than some of the earlier bars were shorter and some of the later ones were longer so the longer ones had some cups on the springplates. The difference between the longets available trosion bar and the shortest one is probably the shortest you could go. I am sure there are a few combinations in between.

Or just use air suspension or a coil over type suspension shock and don't put the torsion bar in.
Jon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 06:35 PM   #4
p-nor
Forum Member
 
p-nor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: paso robles, ca.
Posts: 3,358
Default

i think i understand what you're saying jon but i want to go narrower. the difference between long and short torsions is minimal and i think i'd need more of a difference for the kind of change i'm looking for. i know you can buy narrow alxes from erco, rlr, saw, ect. in 1-3" narrower (i'd like 1.5" per side or so). you can narrow the tubes yourself. that leaves the springplates. i'd like to not narrow the torsion housing as this is a matching pan to the ghia and it'd be cool if whatever i do is reverseable. i'm thinking cutting the spring plates and moving them inboard.






paul
__________________
i'm really scared but i'm even more confused, so i end up doing nothing.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/
p-nor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 06:45 PM   #5
Jon
Forum Member
 
Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Behind you, Breathing heavy on your neck.
Posts: 6,254
Default

I think the results you want is entirely do able with what I described.
I think there is quite a difference between the the torsion bar sizes and you can get what you want.
For instance if you were to use 21 3/4" torsionbars with 24 11/16" springplates.
that would be a total of 2 15/16" narrower.
These springplates are available in heavy duty form for the Offroad and race crowd for under $100.
Jon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 07:00 PM   #6
p-nor
Forum Member
 
p-nor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: paso robles, ca.
Posts: 3,358
Default

i'll check it out. i just started thinking about this so i don't know too much yet. i'll try and get some measurements on the different torsions and springplates. it would be really cool if what i need is available as a vw part. much cheaper too, all i'd have to buy are axles. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img] are the splines different on irs cars, could i use those torsion bars too? or am i stuck looking at s.a. torsion bars?









paul
__________________
i'm really scared but i'm even more confused, so i end up doing nothing.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/
p-nor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 07:03 PM   #7
Nick
Forum Member
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Surrey, BC (Canada)
Posts: 7,648
Default

Do a search








and you probably won't find anything [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif[/img] On my quest for info on how to widen my rear swingaxle came across this site:

http://www.blindchickenracing.com/ForSale/...nsion_parts.htm

As Jon stated, some years are about 3" +/- wider/narrower then others. But if your year is one of the more narrower years (assuming that it may since you have a low light Ghia) then going the custom way would be the next step.
__________________

Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 07:20 PM   #8
carcentric
Grateful Member #484
 
carcentric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle area, USA
Posts: 3,012
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by p-nor@Nov 20 2004, 07:35 PM
. . . i want to go narrower. . . . i'd like 1.5" per side or so . . .
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
What are your plans for a static camber setting?

As the axles get shorter, the change in camber (over bumps and dips) is considerably more extreme. Plan to use any limiter straps or a camber compensator?
__________________
M D "Doc" Nugent
"Slow the fuck down...you're making us slackers look even worse." - Budreaux
carcentric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 07:30 PM   #9
p-nor
Forum Member
 
p-nor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: paso robles, ca.
Posts: 3,358
Default

my ultimate plans are very low ride, raised trans mounts (probably 2"). i'd more than likely go with limit straps, i probably won't have room for a camber compensator. might have to ditch the sump, but i think with the 2" higher trans mounts i could keep it. like i said before, i haven't researched this too much. i've just gotten it in my head recently. i'm still gathering info so keep it coming. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]




paul
__________________
i'm really scared but i'm even more confused, so i end up doing nothing.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/
p-nor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2004, 03:21 AM   #10
Chris
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: N. Seattle
Posts: 586
Default

If you're going to have a hi-po engine and worse yet make your car handle, you're bound to have oil starvation problems without a deep sump or dry sump setup. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cry.gif[/img]
__________________
AKA \"Azure'67\" and \"Chris V\" at STF
<a href=\'http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77\' target=\'_blank\'>http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77[/url]
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2004, 06:50 AM   #11
gowjobs
Forum Member
 
gowjobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 987
Default

If you siamese two partial spring plates together with some spacers btween them, you might be able to get close to an inch narrower safely using four grade 8 bolts to secure them together. I don't see that the short torsion/long torsion spring plates method will work without shortening the torsion housing at the same time. I know you want to keep this reversible, but you're going to have tire interference problems on the inside unless you just want to narrow it so that you can use seriously negative offset wheels.
__________________
-Dave

"When worse comes to worst...

..we're screwed"

gowjobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2004, 06:59 AM   #12
ConductorX
Forum Member
 
ConductorX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hammond, LA
Posts: 567
Default

I am narrowing a rear suspension for my little special project. I have cut 16" out of the torsion tubes and rewelded them. I plan to Z the torsion arms if I can get them back on. I'll post pics of my progress when I get the batteries for the camera recharged.

16" is way more than you want to do I am sure. I think if you take the difference between an IRS torsion bar and a swing axle bar you could narrow as much as 4" on each side without buying special torsion arms. Just sub the swing axle arms for the IRS arms.

I am not ready to Z the torsion arms yet but I will post pics of the progress. I am waiting on some spring plate caps and my machinist to finish the axles.

"G"
__________________
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
ConductorX
http://www.kafercar.com/nuke/images/...uto2_redux.jpg
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.
ConductorX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2004, 07:03 AM   #13
Jon
Forum Member
 
Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Behind you, Breathing heavy on your neck.
Posts: 6,254
Default

Of course you have to narrow the torsion housings. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused.gif[/img]
I am not really sure where anyone would get the Idea that you wouldn't.
There is a guy that lives in Orange Park with like 7" Fuchs under stock fenders and when asked how he narrowed it he told me that he used the short bar and longer spring plate set up that I had described. The obvious thing was the shortening of the housing. I think some things are just obvious I would feel the need to insult some ones intelligence by stating the obvious. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rollingeyes.gif[/img]

Anyway do what you want I have answered the question with what I have been told and have seen.
Jon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2004, 11:57 AM   #14
p-nor
Forum Member
 
p-nor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: paso robles, ca.
Posts: 3,358
Default

thanks guys. the problem is, every time i've heard about anyone doing this they seem to leave out the part of shortening the torsion housings. if it's so obvious, it's going to get forgot about if nobody bothers to bring it up. every time i look at my pan or any pan for that matter, i can't see how you could do it without narrowing the housings but, nobody ever mentioned it so..... ? sorry, i had to ask. maybe this is better done on a second pan if i'm concerned with keeping the original un-hacked. that's no bid deal except for space right now. i could do it in a few months though.


so, that's what i'll do. get a second pan. narrow the housings something like 2" per side (whatever jives with available torsion bars). then i'll z some spring plates. this will also be a ton easier on a second pan without the body on it. then i can add the raised mounts easy. work out a rear airbag setup. narrowed beam. line loc. ect. ect. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] this is going to turn into a lot of work. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]


thanks alot to everyone who responded. i think it's a modification that's above most peoples desires and needs so it hasn't been covered too much. more of a drag type deal. it seems totaly do-albe though. all this so i can run my sprintstars without flaring the rear fenders. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img]








paul
__________________
i'm really scared but i'm even more confused, so i end up doing nothing.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/
p-nor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2004, 01:26 PM   #15
grumpy
Mr. Asshole Moderator
 
grumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Member #88 in Central Arkansas
Posts: 5,882
Default

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>p-nor Posted Today, 02:57 PM
...this is going to turn into a lot of work. [/b][/quote]

I can relate, see my buggy project - [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif[/img] My buggy page
__________________
very cool project coming up later this year and you can see it LIVE, stay tuned.
grumpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2004, 02:08 PM   #16
Chris
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: N. Seattle
Posts: 586
Default

I was thinkin' about it more today...

Have you already got the wheels you desire and they stick-out?
Is there enough room to the inner fenderwell to fit them if the track was narrower?
Z-springplates will narrow the track, but depending where the 'Z' bend is, the back of the rim/tire may still hit the springplate.

I also have approximately zero real world experience with swing axles, I've hauled a couple around the yard and drove one - once. Thinking about it though, the axle tube doesn't have the springplate flange (like I was previously thinking), it's the casting that's held onto the end of the axle tube with a pin(?). So unless there are castings that the location of the flange to the axle bearing varies on, the rear torsion would have to be narrowed or use of Z-springplates.

I've only heard use of Z-springplates when putting Type I tranny's into Buses.

By design of the springplate and the SA trans the springplates must twist to accomodate the camber change - you would think that a Z-spring plate would be a lot less prone to twisting than a flat (stock) springplate and also more likely to break from the stress of trying to twist.

I don't know that there is a bolt-in front mount for raising the trans...meaning you'd have to weld one into your cherry `56 pan [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/crybaby.gif[/img] Also the gear carrier or nosecone may hit the bottom of the luggage tray, so metal reshaping would be required. Where the tranny's 'hockey stick' enters the back of the pan would also change, and in some cases I've seen the shiftrod running atop the tunnel instead of inside it [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img] None of the engine tin would fit the engine bay seals, and assuming you have dual carbs they'd probably have lots of interference with the decklid springs too.

Seems like a bad idea with such a rare car... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif[/img]
__________________
AKA \"Azure'67\" and \"Chris V\" at STF
<a href=\'http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77\' target=\'_blank\'>http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77[/url]
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 02:08 PM   #17
mkparker
Forum Member
 
mkparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sherman, TX
Posts: 5,794
Default

I finally scrounged up my april '94 Hot VWs. It has an article on this very topic. The car in the article was done by Ron Lumus of RLR, Huntington Beach, CA. 714-841-5574 (as of April '94)The torsion housing and axles were narrowed 2" per side. It looks like a cool setup. It gets the "stuck out" torsion tubes out of sight. Here is an outline of thework done. I can scan it for you if you want. The whole project is contingent on using RLR's short axle. It's 2" shorter than the shortest VW axle. No idea on the cost.

1) Remove rear torsion bars.
2) Remove 2" out of each torsion tube.
3) Weld the tubes back together.
4) Modify upper body mount to clear the new location for the torsion tube end casting.
5) Remove end casting off of axle tube.
6) Shorten axle tube 2" and replace end casting.
7) Modify springplates to accommodate the torsion bars which seem wider now.
This step is where a picture is worth a lot of words.....
8) On this car the inner fender well was moved in 1" to make room for the G-60 (10" wide) McCreary tires. PM me for more info or pics.

Finished:
__________________
Michael




mkparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 04:16 PM   #18
Jon
Forum Member
 
Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Behind you, Breathing heavy on your neck.
Posts: 6,254
Default

I am glad your illing to go through all of this instead of just hacking out the fenderwells or flaring them.
I know flares aren't the easy way out as there is fab work involved there as well. It just always seems so much more impressive to see that some one did some major chassis work then to see some creatrive body work. Besides it just look so much cooler to have wider wheels shoved up under stock fenders especially on a Ghia.

Go For It. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img]
Jon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 05:38 PM   #19
p-nor
Forum Member
 
p-nor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: paso robles, ca.
Posts: 3,358
Default

mk- thanks for digging that out. i'm sure i have that mag. in storage somewhere but it'd be awesome if you could scan it for me. it seems like the cost is mostly labor. i imagine you could do something like what jon was saying by searching for some shorter vw torsions and only have to buy axles and the little stuff (bushings, axle seals, ect.). i'm psyched on this mod. i probably won't be able to do this until we buy a house due to needing space and garage to do the pan work. it makes me want to dive into it right away.


side note- you can use a beetle pan under a ghia can't you? it's only the actual pans that are wider isn't it? as i thought i knew, ghia/thing replacement pans are wider than bug ones but can be installed on a bug pan to put under a ghia or thing. let me know if i'm wrong.


side side note-- anyone with a cheap/free swing axle pan in ca.?









paul
__________________
i'm really scared but i'm even more confused, so i end up doing nothing.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/
p-nor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 06:01 PM   #20
mkparker
Forum Member
 
mkparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sherman, TX
Posts: 5,794
Default

Here is a sneak preview.....

Paul, you have mail.
__________________
Michael




mkparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 06:48 PM   #21
Jon
Forum Member
 
Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Behind you, Breathing heavy on your neck.
Posts: 6,254
Default

Hey, Id like a copy as well.
Jon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 07:03 PM   #22
p-nor
Forum Member
 
p-nor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: paso robles, ca.
Posts: 3,358
Default

thanks micheal, i'm printing it out as i type. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img]








paul
__________________
i'm really scared but i'm even more confused, so i end up doing nothing.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/
p-nor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 07:15 PM   #23
ConductorX
Forum Member
 
ConductorX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hammond, LA
Posts: 567
Default

This is my narrowed torsion beam. I don't have photos of the axles yet I am waiting on the machinist to finish cutting them. Since I am not building a full blown car the axles won't see the torque of a normal car.



You can see photos and progress here as I Volksrod my golf cart.

Käferweb Golf-Cart Project
__________________
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
ConductorX
http://www.kafercar.com/nuke/images/...uto2_redux.jpg
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.
ConductorX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2004, 10:42 AM   #24
alltypesvw
Forum Member
 
alltypesvw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 2,297
Default

could this also be done on a split bus? I am looing for a way to make the body sit down over 5.5 inch rims with 195 to 215 50 15's AND be able to extend the rocker straight back across the wheel opening for a very smooth body line right there.. the van was allready radiused around the wheel opening for that huge tire and fender flare thinbg that must have been cool in the 70's
__________________
alltypesvw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2004, 10:51 AM   #25
Chris
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: N. Seattle
Posts: 586
Default

As far as I know Ghia and Things have the same "basic H" as a Std Beetle, with the exception of the floorpans...shifter and e-brake location may have moved around a bit from different year pans - I don't know dimension on the early stuff.
__________________
AKA \"Azure'67\" and \"Chris V\" at STF
<a href=\'http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77\' target=\'_blank\'>http://photo.starblvd.net/Silver77[/url]
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ALL text, images, graphics and content herein are Copyright ©2002 - 2013 Three Pugs Design - Cut Weld Drive Forums